Interview with David Speers, ABC Insiders

DAVID SPEERS:

Peter Dutton, welcome to the program. Now, you criticised Queensland's three day lockdown a few weeks ago, you described it as a panicked move from Annastacia Palaszczuk, how would you describe this decision from the West Australian Premier?

PETER DUTTON:

Good morning David. I think we need to have a look at the facts here. The facts are that the Premier's agreed last year on medical advice to conduct the hotel quarantining in the way that they’re doing. I'd love to tell you that air bases or the Christmas Island facility is fit for purpose, but it’s not. The accommodation is quite austere at our air bases. There is not the segregation of facilities such as the mess and where people need to come together in blocks for, you know, showers or toilets or whatever it might be. It just is not fit for purpose.

DAVID SPEERS:

Sorry, too difficult to make those facilities appropriate?

PETER DUTTON:

Well again David, I mean if you’re talking about tented facilities, which you would need, our air bases don't hold thousands of people. This has all been looked at by the Premiers and Mark McGowan has made a mistake with the Mercure Hotel. Nobody is being critical of him for that. He doesn't need to be defensive. He doesn't want to be the next Dan Andrews where they had significant problems. They have got other hotels that have been perfectly fit for purpose. WA had already identified that the Mercure wasn’t fit for purpose and so they are moving away from that. I am not critical of that. The lesson’s been learned and they can move on from that, but the Commonwealth doesn't have the tens of thousands of police officers for example, or indeed the health systems.

The states run public hospital systems and that's their responsibility and on all of the medical advice that was received by Mr McGowan and the other Premiers and Chief Ministers 12 months ago, the hotels were the most fit for purpose and obviously the Commonwealth's provided support to the Northern Territory in the form of Howard Springs and will continue to bring people back and that has worked very effectively, in the 10s of thousands people have come back through hotel quarantine. It’s been effective. There have been some blips and we’ll work with Mr McGowan to move away from the Mercure Hotel into another one. As he pointed out in his own words, there are seven or eight, nine hotels that are working perfectly fine in WA at the moment, and we’ll work with them.

DAVID SPEERS:

Let’s move on. You are obviously unable to attend Anzac Day services yourself along with many others of course. This year I suspect many are reflecting on Australia's long involvement in Afghanistan. There is still a lot of debate about the decision to withdraw our troops from Afghanistan. You said the other day we haven't had a 9/11-style attack in 20 years because of our efforts there. What happens if the Taliban regains control and Afghanistan again becomes a breeding ground for international terrorism?

PETER DUTTON:

Well David, we’ll act in our best interests, which is what we have done in joining our alliance partners, in particular the United States. We need to make sure that the alliance with the United States, with the United Kingdom, our other Five Eyes partners is as strong as it has ever been and we have strengthened it by being there alongside those allies.

I honestly believe that we truly pay tribute this Anzac Day to the 39,000 men and women of the Australian Defence Force, 41 of whom gave their lives in this cause, because they have continued the fine traditions of the original Anzacs. They have served their country well with distinction and honour and we really pay tribute – not only to them, but to their families as well – and we continue to enjoy the lifestyle that we do in our country because of their efforts.

If there is an issue with the Taliban, as the United States has already I think demonstrated, they will have an ongoing commitment to dealing with that and if we believe that there are…if there is a resurgence or if there is the ability of a terrorist attack in our country, then we will do whatever is humanly and legally possible to keep our people safe.

DAVID SPEERS:

Does that mean we could go back in?

PETER DUTTON:

Well in 20 years time could we go back in? That would be a decision for future governments, but if we saw a series of 9/11 attacks…

DAVID SPEERS:

…I'm not saying in 20 years' time, I'm saying if we see something sooner brewing in Afghanistan, is there a prospect of going back?

PETER DUTTON:

I think it is very unlikely David. I think the fact is that there's been a withdrawal now. I think President Biden has been very clear about the position of the United States and obviously that's a decision for the US and we don't have any plans to go back in. I can't see how that's possible in the foreseeable future. I think there would be a different way of dealing with those threats than troops on the ground.

DAVID SPEERS:

Australia's legacy in Afghanistan also includes serious allegations of war crimes. Your predecessor Linda Reynolds said after reading the Brereton Report which detailed these allegations, she felt physically ill. Minister, have you read the unredacted report and what was your reaction?

PETER DUTTON:

There are three versions of the report David, so I've read the middle version if you like, which contains some redaction around names because I'd been responsible for setting up the Office of Special Investigator and that process is underway at the moment, so I’d had some awareness and obviously having sat around the National Security Committee for some of these discussions, I’ve had pretty reasonable awareness of these matters and I’ve read through the version of the Brereton Report now.

DAVID SPEERS:

So, what did you make of it?

PETER DUTTON:

Well there are very confronting issues and if the allegations are proven then people have a very serious consequence to pay. But there's a criminal investigation process that's under way by the OSI at the moment and you talk about our legacy in the Middle East; we also stopped young girls from being slaughtered, we stopped people from being butchered, and we allowed young girls to be educated. There are many wonderful attributes to the contribution that our 39,000 diggers have made in the Middle East and that’s what I want to concentrate on. For the small number who have done the wrong thing, then there is a process to face there, including potentially a court and jury and if people are convicted, well they will pay some price under the law as anybody else would.

DAVID SPEERS:

Let me ask you about this process. The report did recommend the Meritorious Unit Citation, a collective honour for the special forces be revoked. Justice Brereton said the conduct he uncovered was disgraceful, not meritorious. The Chief of Defence Angus Campbell agreed, there was a need for collective accountability. The Chief of Army said, if we knew then what we know now, the unit would not have received or been forward for a Meritorious Unit Citation. You however have overridden this decision. I'm interested why you did that and what approach you will take as Minister to overriding command decisions of the Chief of Defence?

PETER DUTTON:

Well, this was in response to the Brereton Report and as you say it was a recommendation. I don't agree with the recommendation, nor the decision that was made. I looked at all of the facts, I have read the Brereton Report as we've just discussed and I've canvassed widely, including with the Prime Minister, but with many of our defence personnel as well, and I don't believe that you could go back to any period in history frankly and say that all of those that have received a unit citation to the last man or woman have conducted themselves with 100 per cent clarity around their own conduct etc.

Now, there are serious allegations that have been made, and I don't detract from those at all, but as I say, we have set up an Office of the Special Investigator. There are 75 investigators. It is led by a very distinguished judge and we have a capacity to deal with this and to make sure that people are held to account.

DAVID SPEERS:

But I'm just more interested...

PETER DUTTON:

…for the vast majority of the 3,000...

DAVID SPEERS:

…I appreciate that process, but I'm just more interested in your view as Minister as to how and when you will override the Chief of Defence, this is a pretty big deal to do that?

PETER DUTTON:

When I think it is in the best interests of the Australian Defence Force David, that is when I will do it and I believed it was in the best interests of our defence personnel and of the organisation and I also believe very strongly that for the 3,000 who were recognised during this process, that the vast majority of them have done the right thing. They have acted with distinction, they have served our country with pride. We're incredibly proud of that service and for those that have done the wrong thing, they will have a price to pay, including having a line drawn through their name so that they are not eligible for this unit citation. But the actions of those should not taint the actions of the vast majority who have served our country with distinction and for which we should be very grateful.

DAVID SPEERS:

Let me turn to the next potential conflict. Defence is required to play a lot of different roles at the moment, whether it is humanitarian missions, search and rescue missions, bushfire relief, they are playing a role in some of the COVID hotel quarantines and so on. Here’s the question. Your colleague Andrew Hastie’s been talking a bit about this. Is defence prepared to fight a war in this region, indeed, a war that could involve defending Australia, a low-risk perhaps, but how prepared is defence for that?

PETER DUTTON:

A couple of points David. Obviously we are in peace time and we want to stay in peace time. That is the objective of any Minister of any government of any people. I want to make sure that we can do all we can to preserve that peace and obviously the Government has excellent relations with countries in our own region, but right around the world.

The second point is that there is a high level of preparedness, as there should be, as there always will be, for our Australian Defence Force to meet the threats that we see in our region toward our country against our allies and we are making a near $300 billion investment over this decade to provide the Australian Defence Force with the support that they need. The training is exemplary and our allies, as much as our adversaries, know the strength of the Australian Defence Force and I have been very clear in not only saying we have the back of our Australian Defence Force personnel, but also that we will arm them and skill them with everything they need.

DAVID SPEERS:

So there will not be a gap when it comes to the submarines?

PETER DUTTON:

No there won't because we can push out the life, we can extend the life of the existing Collins Class. They are, as I say, an incredibly important and capable asset and we will make sure that we have that capacity.

DAVID SPEERS:

What about the French Naval Group submarines, the 12 new attack submarines you talk about. We have heard about disputes over design and costs and local suppliers being used and so on. Can you give us a guarantee you will still stick with this big, big contract or is there a prospect that it might be ditched?

PETER DUTTON:

Well, I've met with the Chairman and as I say, I've had extensive briefings now from defence, still with more to come because there are many questions that arise from these briefings as you would expect. So I have got more detail to go through. I want to see the subs delivered on time and on budget. I have been very clear. I met with the primes and with the heads of those that have very significant contracts with our Government...

DAVID SPEERS:

So you will stick with the contract?

PETER DUTTON:

…and I want the message to be very clear.

DAVID SPEERS:

You’ll stick with the contract?

PETER DUTTON:

Well if it can be delivered and if there is performance under the contract then, yes, we will, but like with any contract that the Commonwealth enters into, those people that have contracted with us know that we are going to hold them to the conditions of the contract and if there are penalties to pay or there's other action that we can take, that will happen. So I want greater performance than what we’ve seen previously…

DAVID SPEERS:

Are you looking at any other options, any other submarine options?

PETER DUTTON:

I'm looking at this one and that's where we are concentrating at the moment to make sure that those commitments that have been provided can be met.

DAVID SPEERS:

Two of your former colleagues, Tony Abbott and Christopher Pyne, didn’t always agree on everything, but they both now believe the prospects of a battle over Taiwan are growing, could happen quite soon. Do you share that view?

PETER DUTTON:

I don't think it should be discounted. I think China has been very clear about the reunification and that's been a long-held objective of theirs and if you look at any of the rhetoric that is coming out of China, from spokesmen particularly in recent weeks and months in response to different suggestions that have been made, they have been very clear about that goal. But again, nobody wants to see...

DAVID SPEERS:

How do you view that? I mean we have seen a lot of aggression from China with incursions into Taiwan's air space, live fire navy drills off the coast of Taiwan, how do you view all that?

PETER DUTTON:

I just think people need to be realistic about the activity. When there is militarisation of bases across the region, obviously there is a significant amount of activity and there is an animosity between Taiwan and China and for us we want to make sure that we continue to be a good neighbour in the region, that we work with our partners and with our allies and nobody wants to see conflict between China and Taiwan or anywhere else.

DAVID SPEERS:

Are there red lines as far as Australia is concerned?

PETER DUTTON:

Well David I think at the moment the most important thing for us to concentrate on is continuing those good relations. We have good relations with a number of countries including China, very important trading partner. We have an incredible diaspora community here in Australia, people who have contributed to our country over generations that are incredibly important Australians, but we do have a difference of opinion with the ideals of the Communist Party of China. Let's be very frank about it.

DAVID SPEERS:

Well a couple just quickly, the Government did this week cancel Victoria's Belt and Road Initiative deals with Beijing. Why haven't you done anything about the Port of Darwin lease signed by the Northern Territory CLP Government with a Chinese company back in 2015?

PETER DUTTON:

Well, there are literally thousands of these cases to look at and the Defence Minister…sorry the Foreign Affairs Minister is working through all of that.

DAVID SPEERS:

So that's being looked at?

PETER DUTTON:

Well the advice from defence in relation to any of these matters will be taken into consideration by Marise and then decisions will be made. So I am not pre-empting or suggesting that she's looking at it. I think it is a question for Marise to look at these individual cases. If it is not in our national interests then obviously she will act and I think Marise has done exactly the right thing here. Our sovereignty is incredibly important and our values are important and I don't think anybody would argue with that.

DAVID SPEERS:

Final one. You are the sixth Defence Minister since the Coalition came to office. Continuity has been a bit of an issue. Will you be running again at the next election and seeking to continue as the Defence Minister?

PETER DUTTON:

Yes, absolutely David. I have already announced that. I would be happy to give you a scoop, but I have already been very clear about. Despite 20 years now in Parliament and looking much older, I am only 50, 51 this year. So I am hoping that I have got a few years left in me yet.

DAVID SPEERS:

Defence Minister Peter Dutton. Thank you.

PETER DUTTON:

Thanks, David.

[ends]