Interview with Patricia Karvelas, RN Breakfast, ABC Radio

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Minister welcome to the program.

PETER DUTTON:

My pleasure Patricia. Thank you.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Moscow says that it's achieved all of its objectives so far in Ukraine. What is your latest advice on the invasion and the number of casualties?

PETER DUTTON:

Well it's still early hours of this operation by the Russians. It's very clear to us already that the false flag and the activity, the claimed provocations, protecting regions etc, was all a ruse – as everybody had predicted. It's clear that President Putin has had this invasion in mind for some time and it should be an alarm bell. It should be a wakeup call to not only Europe, but to the rest of the world, including Australia, that we shouldn't take the peace that we've had since the Cold War for granted.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

The Ukraine Government says that Russian troops have infiltrated the exclusion zone around the old Chernobyl nuclear plant, which raises the prospect of radioactive waste being disturbed. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says this is a declaration of war against the whole of Europe. Does this development introduce a whole new element of danger to the conflict?

PETER DUTTON:

There’s no question that it does and there will be other key facilities that are significant for various reasons that would also come into question and it's deeply disturbing and the most important consideration, of course, is for those people who are innocent – the women and children in particular who will be victims of this dreadful move by President Putin – and I think that's been predicted. It will be a reality of the conflict, of the invasion and we should always bear them in mind first.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

There are an estimated 1,400 Australians still in Ukraine. Is it safe for them to leave, and how can they leave now?

PETER DUTTON:

Well, we've been very clear for a period of time Patricia, that people, Australian citizens or those close family members should leave immediately and we have been encouraging that. DFAT have done a fantastic job in directly contacting people, advising them to do so.

Now, there are some people, some Australian citizens, who are in some cases dual citizens or have visa arrangements in the Ukraine, they're deeply embedded, they've got family there, there are numerous reasons and legitimate reasons as to why they haven't wanted to move, but if people can make their way safely it a border, then I think that's what…advice would be to do that. Some people, depending on where they are, it may be safer for them to stay in a bunker or stay where they are in situ, because it's obviously a very volatile environment.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Lots of world leaders are talking tough on Vladimir Putin, but the West has so far failed to stop him. NATO has now activated its defence plan, meaning more forces will be sent in to the Baltic States and Poland. And more American troops will be sent to Germany, but these forces will not be deployed in Ukraine, so there's – so where's the deterrence value in all of these manoeuvres?

PETER DUTTON:

Well Patricia, obviously nobody wants conflict of any nature and I think the world has been united in its view against President Putin going into the Ukraine. That's everybody except China and this is really deeply disturbing, that China has essentially encouraged Russia, and China is the one country that could pick the phone up to President Putin now and say turn back and pull back from this dreadful mistake that you're making. They're not prepared to do that it seems, which is deeply concerning and I think they're probably watching to see what the world reaction is so that they can make their own calculations down the track in relation to Taiwan.

So there are many disturbing elements to this and I think the Europeans, the Brits and the Germans, plus others of course, the Americans, have done everything they possibly can to deter President Putin from going in, but he's on a course and we should be realistic about that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

So you're saying now it's on China to apply maximum pressure. What should they be doing right now to try and apply that pressure on President Putin?

PETER DUTTON:

Well, President Xi and President Putin have announced this special relationship, this bond, this union that they've formed and it's clear that President Xi has the power, probably uniquely compared to any other world leader, to work with Russia and to, you know, encourage them to pull back from the actions that they're undertaking.

This is, you know, the opening hours of this conflict, but there will be many bloody scenes that we'll see over the coming weeks and tragic stories. And all of its been preventable in the sense that President Putin had the decision not to go in. He acted against all of the advice from the world leaders who'd met with him and yes, of course it's on President Putin, but it's clear that China has a special relationship with Russia, and they have the ability to exert pressure on to the Russian leader and to have him pull back from this shocking invasion.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

You mentioned Taiwan and you've raised concerns in the past. Do we have any evidence that China is watching this closely and considering its own actions in the region?

PETER DUTTON:

Well certainly from the analysts' perspective, our military analysts are watching many people in relation to this. We're concerned about potential cyber attacks in our own country, either directly or collateral damage of broader cyber attacks that they might undertake and we should be realistic about that threat. Businesses should take extra protections and people should visit the Australian Signals Directorate website and the Australian Cyber Security Centre's website to get the latest information.

But we're a society that relies on our telecommunications, and that's how we live our lives and we need to make sure that we've got, you know, the latest patches installed, password protection etc, those basic things people should be undertaking and that's a very real concern.

They're also monitoring what activity there is elsewhere, and quite often in these circumstances, countries will act under the cover of this sort of circumstance that we're seeing in the Ukraine and we just hope and pray obviously that it's over as quickly as possible and that President Putin really reflects on the view of the world, which clearly he hasn't to date.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

If we don't commit boots on the ground, what about providing air defences, which Kyiv is pleading for?

PETER DUTTON:

No, we've been very clear Patricia, we're not sending troops to the Ukraine. That's been very clear. The European nations and NATO itself have incredible capacity and there would be an expectation that if there's more to be provided then it’s in that form. But that's been the clear position of the Australian Government.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Okay. If direct military action is off the table and the new sanctions don't work, what's the alternative left then? I mean the Ukrainian community here in Australia have asked the government to send non-lethal military supplies. Will that be forthcoming?

PETER DUTTON:

Well there'll be assistance that we can provide and that will be something we talk about at the appropriate time. Obviously we've been in discussion with our allies and partners and with Ukraine as well about what assistance could be provided pre and post any conflict. So we'll work through all of that. The Prime Minister's already made announcements about accommodating, facilitating visa holders more quickly and putting those cases to the top of the pile, and all of that has already been actioned by the Australian Border Force.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Obviously sanctions will be ramped up. One option could be to completely cut off Russia's gas and oil income. Would the West have the guts to go through with that? Should that be something that's looked at?

PETER DUTTON:

Well this is a question for Germany and others and from our perspective, as I think most world leaders have pointed out, the Australian perspective certainly is the same – the Prime Minister's been very clear on this – that there should be very severe sanctions and Russia should understand that there is a very, very high economic price to pay here and it may well be that that issue is included in the sanctions, but that's really a matter for others at the moment.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Will Australia expel the Russian diplomat?

PETER DUTTON:

I think the Australian Government will consider every option. There's precedence around this during previous conflicts over a long period of time and we'll consider all of those equities, but the Foreign Minister has been very clear with her counterpart over a long period of time as to Australia's position, and we've expressed that to the in-country representatives as well.

PATRICIA KARVELAS:

Peter Dutton, many thanks for your time.

PETER DUTTON:

My pleasure.

[ends]