Interview with Kieran Gilbert, Sky News

KIERAN GILBERT:  

Let's go live to Singapore now. I'm joined by the Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Richard Marles, who is there attending the Shangri-La Defence Dialogue. Thank you very much for joining us. Deputy Prime Minister, let me start with your speech, your comments yesterday, in which you said, basically the Ukraine conflict is showing everyone that economic interdependence is not enough to preserve the peace. In that context, you said that we've got to learn to get on and live together with China. I wonder, have you had the opportunity to have any talks with your Chinese counterpart while you've been there in Singapore?

RICHARD MARLES:  

Well, good morning, Kieran. I've literally been introduced to General Wei, but there's been no opportunity to have a proper conversation. We've still got a day to go in terms of the Dialogue, so it's possible that interaction might occur. But we've been very clear in our position here, which is that the global rules-based order, the Bretton Woods Institutions, which have been the foundation of prosperity and peace in East Asia and around the world since the end of the Second World War, are fundamental to Australia's national interest going forward. The UN Convention on the Law of the Sea is essential in terms of allowing free navigation in all bodies of water, including the South China Sea, where most of Australia's trade traverses. And it's really important that we see that continue, and Australia's national interest lies in that, and we will continue to exercise our rights accordingly. And more than that, we're seeing a very significant military build-up on the part of China. It's very important that this is happening in a way which is transparent, where there is reassuring statecraft, because insecurity is what drives an arms race, and we can't afford to see that happen in this part of the world.

KIERAN GILBERT:

Let's go back to what you said at the start there, though, because while you were introduced to your defence, your Chinese counterpart, that might not seem like a huge thing at normal times, but these are not normal times. We haven't had contact between Ministers for a number of years now. This is the first contact that a Minister, yourself, has had with the Chinese counterpart. Is the freeze ending between Canberra and Beijing?

RICHARD MARLES:  

Well, I don't want to overstate what's occurred. To give people a sense of the dynamic here, there's hundreds of delegates at this conference. There's about 30 Defence Ministers, and we're all circulating in various events. So it's not unusual that we would be introduced, and it was literally nothing more than a handshake. I mean, I would observe that Defense Secretary Austin of the United States did meet with General Wei over the last couple of days. So this is a place where dialogue can occur, which is very important. We've been very clear that we want to go about our international relations in a way which is sober, which is professional, which is based on respect and that's really important during complex times. The more complex the times, the more important it is that there is dialogue and proper diplomacy. So that's where we stand, and we will engage in our relations with all countries, including China, on the basis of seeking to bring to bear a mutual respect. But in saying that, we won't shy away from articulating those issues which go to our national interest and making sure that the global rules-based order, such as the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, is central to our national interest, and we need to be seeing it applied in this part of the world.

KIERAN GILBERT:

Yeah. Well, you reiterated that in the address yesterday, quoting Paul Keating in saying that China had an equal responsibility to accept constraints on its immense strengths. Is that the sort of message if you have the opportunity, you said it's possible you might have a longer meeting with the Chinese Defence Minister? Will you be frank with him if you do get that opportunity today? As you said, there is another day of the Dialogue in Singapore ahead?

RICHARD MARLES:  

We are frank and upfront in the way in which we engage with all countries. We want to be respectful. We want to engage in diplomacy, see that dialogue occur. That's really the whole point of the Shangri-La Dialogue and why it's so important to be here. And as I said earlier, the more complex the times, the more important it is that there is dialogue. But in engaging in that way, we're also going to be very clear about where our national interest lies and where the interests of the region lie. And in essence, the message that I gave in my speech yesterday which would characterise what we're saying to all the countries that we're meeting, is that the rules of the road matter, the global rules-based order is really important. We need to be seeing countries relate to each other on the basis of those rules and not on the basis of power and might. And as we are witnessing a very significant military build-up in the Indo-Pacific, it's very important that that happens in a way which is transparent. And we've got to have reassuring statecraft occur, because the fact of the matter is that in the absence of that, we will see insecurity. And insecurity is what will drive an arms race. And when you look at Australia's own military build-up, in many ways, that is a response to the situation that we're seeing play out in the Indo-Pacific.

KIERAN GILBERT:  

The Chinese militarisation, as you put it in your comments there, you said that militarisation in the South China Sea by China needs to be seen for what it is. Can you explain to our viewers what you mean by that?

RICHARD MARLES:

Well, the artificial islands which have been constructed by the Chinese government represent an assertion of sovereignty in the South China Sea, which is not consistent with how we would understand, how the world understands, the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea - which provides for freedom of navigation, which allows free movement of vessels on the high seas, and that includes within the South China Sea. And that's so important from Australia's point of view, because most of our trade goes through that body of water. This is not an abstract esoteric point for Australia. This goes fundamentally to our core interest. All of our trade to China, obviously, but all of our trade to Korea, all of our trade to Japan - they're two of our top five trading partners - traverses the South China Sea. So that there is freedom of navigation on that body of water, and that the rules around sovereignty that have always been articulated, really, since the end of the Second World War, that is fundamental to our national interest, and that's what we seek to assert and what we seek to promote.

KIERAN GILBERT:  

You met with your French counterpart last night. Obviously, it's been a rocky bilateral period between our country and a traditional ally in the French. Do you feel that this deal with the NAVAL Group, $830 million compensation arrangement, has that now smoothed things over with our French counterparts?

RICHARD MARLES:  

I tell you, Kieran, and I feel that this is really the basis upon which we can move forward. I met with Sébastien Lecornu yesterday and we had a very warm meeting. I think it's fair to say the speed with which we have moved in order to settle this matter, to put a line underneath it and to move forward, was very much welcomed by the French Minister. Mr Lecornu spoke of the fact that over the history of our two countries, we have had a very deep connection when it comes to our military history. More Australian lives, easily more Australian lives have been lost in France than any other country in terms of our military history. And that the sacrifice associated with that really should underpin the way in which we work going forward. And that's a sentiment with which I completely concur. France and Australia have so much in common. France is a Pacific country, and we need to remember that, we often forget. The closest overseas population to where you're sitting right now Kieran is in France. It's Noumea and New Caledonia, and the longest border they have with any country in the world is with us. And it speaks to the fact that they are a Pacific power, that as a liberal democracy in the Pacific, we really welcome their presence. And there is much that we can do to work with them

KIERAN GILBERT:  Your opposition counterpart, Andrew Hastie, the new shadow Defence Minister, says that your government, that Mr. Albanese and you, need to explain why $830 million is fair and equitable agreement. He says that the Coalition was aiming for a significantly lower figure in terms of the compensation payment. Why is 830 fair and equitable?

RICHARD MARLES:  

Well, that's just not true. I think what we're seeing from the Coalition, weeks into their time in opposition, is they're just making stuff up now and they're really making stuff up in terms of where their government was at just a few weeks ago. The fact of the matter is that this arrangement is a really good deal for Australia. It represents less money than what we were facing just a few weeks ago. It's good in terms of our financial interest to be able to get out of this situation for this amount. But it's really important in terms of putting a line underneath what has been a very difficult relationship between France and Australia under the previous government and return that relationship to the place it should be given we're neighbours.

KIERAN GILBERT:  

Mr Hastie says you're sending a bad signal to potential adversaries that we're not committed to nuclear submarines. He said you've sent concerning signals to the US and UK that you're not serious about delivering AUKUS in a timely manner. Talking about interim diesel subs, he says that's the wrong message to send. What's your response?

RICHARD MARLES:  

Well, again, I'm not exactly sure where Andrew Hastie is coming from in terms of his attempt to verbal us. We've been really clear from the outset that we support AUKUS. We're completely committed to AUKUS and we're completely committed to the capability that AUKUS delivers us in terms of a nuclear-powered submarine. That is really critical to Australia's capabilities going forward, and there's no doubt about that at all. But what we've seen from the leader of the opposition, to be frank, is some pretty loose commentary which undermines Australia's national interest. Just a few weeks ago, Peter Dutton was sitting in the chair I now sit in. He was privy to our nation's secrets, as he should have been. They're not there for political use. They're not there for partisan gain. And to seek to do that deeply undermines Australia's national interest. And I think that's what we've seen through the leader of the opposition's comments in the last few days. So let me make this really clear. His comments, and those of Mr Hastie, bear no resemblance to the facts, none whatsoever. And this government has made no decision as to the direction that it's going to go in relation to which nuclear powered submarine we go with - that is a matter we continue to work through with both the United States and Great Britain. And all the options which have been on the table there remain on the table.

KIERAN GILBERT:  

Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Richard Marles, live from Singapore. Thanks for your time. We'll talk to you soon.

RICHARD MARLES:  

Thanks, Kieran.

END