Radio Interview, ABC Perth

SUBJECTS: Defence Workforce Plan.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS, HOST: I do now want to go to Matt Keogh, who's the Minister for Defence Personnel. Good morning, Minister, and thank you for joining me.

MINISTER FOR VETERANS’ AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE PERSONNEL, MATT KEOGH: Hi, Nadia, it's great to be with you.

MITSOPOULOS: First of all, a review of Australia's Defence Force last year did identify some severe workforce pressures. How dire is the situation?

MINISTER KEOGH: The Defence Strategic Review that we did last year absolutely identified there were problems with our workforce numbers in the Defence Force and we'd seen a steady decline under the previous government and that was something that we absolutely have to arrest. And the Workforce Plan that we've released today, together with the announcement of the $600 million investment in expanding and extending the Continuation Bonuses, as well as expanding the operational reserve, are about addressing those shortages that we inherited and turning around the situation when it comes to retention as well as improving recruitment.

MITSOPOULOS: I'll get to the bonuses in a moment, but how many do you need? What are the numbers? How short are you?

MINISTER KEOGH: So, one of the things the Workforce Plan also does is sets out the numbers we need to be having in our Defence Force based on the revised capability plan, which we call the Integrated Investment Plan, which was released earlier this year. So, we're comfortable with the numbers we have right now, but what it shows is the trajectory that we need to be hitting. So, the 59,000 personnel that we have in the Defence Force now needs to be up around 69,000 in the early 2030s. And our combined uniformed and public service numbers in Defence needs to be at 100,000 by 2040. So, it shows the trajectory, but it's a trajectory that now maps to and fits with the capabilities we're actually acquiring. What we'd inherited from the previous government was a sort of a trajectory of numbers we needed in the Defence Force, which didn't actually align with what we were doing in terms of the equipment and the capabilities we were bringing on board. It was an announcement, it wasn't funded and it didn't have a plan on how to get there. So, this Workforce Plan goes together with the National Defence Strategy and the Integrated Investment Plan that we released earlier in the year.

MITSOPOULOS: How achievable is that? Those numbers are pretty high.

MINISTER KEOGH: Certainly we need to increase, as I said, over the next decade we need to increase by about 9,000 people and that means making sure that we're retaining more people, that we're retaining them for longer and that we're increasing the numbers joining our Defence Force, we have, over the term that we've been in government, been able to decrease the separation rate. So, we're back down to a long term historical average of around 9% separation rate. But we also need to keep people in for longer and that means at the moment we average about seven years. We want to get that average up to about 12 years. And the extension and the expansion of the Continuation Bonus is about delivering that outcome.

MITSOPOULOS: So, I want to talk more about why people leave, but what are the bonuses that you're expanding?

MINISTER KEOGH: So, we have the, we started the Continuation Bonus last year and based on what we've seen, with the success of that, we'll be extending that programme. So, that's for people who have just finished their initial service obligation, which they sign on for another three years after that they get the bonus. But what we'll also do is for those who have been in service for around seven to nine years, those middle ranks, which is where we have seen a hollowness develop, where we need to keep people in for that longer period, they'll also be eligible for the bonus if they sign on for another three years at that point.

MITSOPOULOS: It almost feels like financial handcuffs, if you like.

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, it's a financial incentive to stay. And the feedback that we have had from Defence personnel with the operation of the bonus to date is that it has supported them in making a decision where they were thinking about do they stay, do they leave? That yes, they will sign up for those additional three years and stay in our Defence service. And that's really important that we've got people staying in the ADF for longer. And that means that this bonus programme is working.

MITSOPOULOS: The Minister for Defence Personnel, Matt Keogh is my guest this morning at 21 to nine. And I do want to know if you've left, why did you leave and what would have kept you in the Defence Force? 1300 222 720, you talk about that sort of seven years is when they tend to leave. What's happening at seven years? That seems to be when people want to leave the Defence Force. What do you put that down to?

MINISTER KEOGH: Well, there's a range of factors as to why people leave the Defence Force. Part of that is remuneration and obviously the bonus that we're extending and expanding through this announcement goes to addressing that. But part of the, some of the issues that people have confronted have also been around the housing flexibility, the arrangements in terms of family and family reunion have posted away from family. And so we've been addressing those issues in terms of Defence Force wellbeing as well. So, we've added, changed policies around Defence housing to add flexibility to the housing arrangements. We've improved allowances, we've increased the number of times people can return to see family when they're posted away from family. We've tried to address those lifestyle factors, if you like, with wellbeing. Improving access to study for serving personnel while they're serving, improving access to healthcare for family members through Defence as well. So, we're trying to address lifestyle factors not just for serving personnel, but for the families as well, because it's often family reasons why people choose to leave. So, the better we support the families, the better we're supporting our Defence Force members. And so it's across the whole range of culture, wellbeing and remuneration in all the different forms that supports people staying in the service for longer.

MITSOPOULOS: And also, and this criticism has been made, you know, many times before that often Defence Force personnel don't feel valued, they don't feel well looked after, families aside, from a personal point of view, they often don't feel like they're being treated the way they should be.

MINISTER KEOGH: Certainly I've received that feedback when we came into government. I'm very understanding of that and it's why we have put such a priority on developing the Workforce Plan on looking at these remuneration structures, making sure allowances best fit, how the different services and people in the ADF actually work, making sure that their housing situation for them and their family is well supported, being able to access study, it all goes to a demonstration of and delivering on the way in which we value the service that they provide to our country in our national interests.

MITSOPOULOS: What about with AUKUS and the, the type of personnel that you're going to need who will have nuclear knowledge and those sort of capabilities, how challenging is it going to be to fill that workforce?

MINISTER KEOGH: So, we've already opened up roles now for people to be recruited into the nuclear submarine programme so people can seek to enlist into that programme directly. We will send them for the appropriate training we've had for some time now, Defence Force personnel going to the UK, going to the US, undertaking the nuclear related training that they provide over there as part of their programmes. So, we're already getting that pathway developed so that we've got the workforce for when we start, so they can integrate with the rotational forces that will start operating out of HMAS Stirling from 2027 and then of course, when we take on operating our own Virginia-class submarines after that. And the Australians that have been participating have been performing very well. In fact, we had an Australian submariner top the class in the UK just recently and we're looking to bring more people in now. And when we look at that recruitment picture, there's over 300 different roles across the Defence Force doing all sorts of different things. But now a group of those roles are directly going into the nuclear submarine programme.

MITSOPOULOS: And again, so 300 different roles, how many rotational staff will you need and how many sort of at the peak, like what's the target there?

MINISTER KEOGH: So, it's obviously growing. That submarine force is something that happens over time because we'll be training people on those American and then UK rotational submarines that will be rotating through HMAS Stirling and then growing that to be able to transition into the Virginia-class submarines. So, that is something that will be growing over time. And so we're seeking to always increase the numbers of people coming in for that. But in terms of the, across the entire Defence Force, we're looking at growing by, as I said, that sort of 9,000, 10,000 figure over till the early 2030s up to 69,000. And we've got to do that across a whole range of things, not just the nuclear propelled submarine programme.

MITSOPOULOS: Does it feel like an uphill battle Minister, and I want to read you this text that I've received. This person says, I'm in the reserve and I have been for 14 years. After my 12 full time year career, I get paid about a third of my daily rate in the reserve. So, I always prioritise working for my full time employer. Defence need to recognise specialist reserve members and pay them at least the same as a full time equivalent. There's no pension, there's no medical and there's no other benefits in the reserve other than tax free income. So, when you're competing with the private sector and you get that sort of feedback, it does feel like what you're trying to do is going to be very, very difficult.

MINISTER KEOGH: And that's why as part of what we've announced today, is increasing the size of the operational reserve by additional 1,000 people by 2030. So, that's people that are not just doing the occasional days of reserve service, it's coming on and doing full time even, and sometimes part time service through the reserves. And at the moment that's mainly through Army, but we're making sure that that's part of Navy, part of Air Force, but also part of the Space domain as well. Reservists do have access to some health provisions and in terms of the pension, everyone in the Defence Force now is into a super scheme anyway. But this is part of what we are announcing with the Workforce Plan is how we better engage and expand our utilisation of the reserves.

MITSOPOULOS: I'll leave it there and I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MINISTER KEOGH: Great. Thanks a lot Nadia.

MITSOPOULOS: Matt Keogh there, he's the Minister for Defence Personnel

ENDS