Minister for Defence - Transcript - Interview with Geoff Hutchison, 720 ABC Perth

Topic: Australia’s Involvement in Iraq; Combating Terrorism

HUTCHISON:

Reports this morning of the first air strikes by the United States against Islamic State jihadists near Baghdad, the US military’s central command has said that both fighter and attack aircraft conducted separate airstrikes on Sunday and Monday in support of Iraqi forces south-west of Baghdad, the strikes were described as the first to provide direct aid for Iraqi forces fighting the Islamic militant groups.

You’ll also have heard on the news that there appears to be growing international support for an appropriate military assistance to Iraq to combat that insurgency and representatives of 30 countries have agreed there is an urgent need to remove IS from the region, well let’s speak to Australia’s Defence Minister, Senator David Johnston. David good morning to you

JOHNSTON:

Good morning Geoff.

HUTCHISON:

Are you aware of those reports of those air strikes near Baghdad?

JOHNSTON:

Look I’m not particularly aware of the specific reports but I know that air strikes have been going on for several weeks now in various parts, particularly in the northern part of Iraq.

HUTCHISON:

This has been seen to be the first time that the United States is providing direct aid to Iraqi forces?

JOHNSTON:

Yes.

HUTCHISON:

So I guess the significant thing about this is that this appears to be the first stage of what will be I guess a long and protracted battle?

JOHNSTON:

The difference I suspect here is that military advisers assisting the Iraqi security forces have called forward air support for direct target attack.

HUTCHISON:

What kind of war are we getting ourselves into Minister?

JOHNSTON:

It’s not just us, the first important point that needs to be made is that we have set about the task of directly trying to protect innocent civilians in Iraq and so our first disposition is to provide that protection as humanitarian support.

We’ve had two successful air-drops of water and supplies to people in Sinjar and also in Amerli and of course the threat continues and so we’ve then participated with a number of other countries with providing ammunition to the Peshmerga in north-eastern Iraq so that they can hold the line, so to speak.

Now we have some 30 countries deciding to participate in what is essentially a rescue mission for Iraq at the invitation and the request for assistance by the Iraqi government of Mr al-Abadi and I think that’s the context that we would put this operation in, it’s a coalition of international partners who are stepping up to deal with what is probably one of the most serious threats we’ve seen for a very, very long time arising from fundamentalist terrorism.

HUTCHISON:

On one hand can we keep talking about this as a humanitarian issue when on the other hand we’re talking about the objective being to disrupt and destroy Islamic State militants? To quote the former Iraq officer James Brown who was on ABC Radio yesterday, the Super Hornets, Australia’s Super Hornets, weren’t bought for humanitarian purposes and they won’t be dropping humanitarian bombs. Is there a hesitancy to say that this is a war?

JOHNSTON:

No I don’t think there is, and we will be conducting warlike operations ultimately, but the fact is that we will be doing so to provide direct protection to the legitimate government and to the innocent civilians from this organisation called ISIL – I think what we’ve seen so far is absolutely at the extreme end of what is conduct from a group of people who have clearly no compunction about publicising wanton murder of innocent people.

I think the motive for us to go forward into this operation with our partners is first and foremost the protection of innocent people in the region.

HUTCHISON:

Will Australia keep its interest in Iraq or is there the likelihood that beyond this situation in Iraq is there a stage two called Syria?

JOHNSTON:

At this stage there’s not. The Prime Minister has been very clear that our focus with our partners is on Iraq, that is what we have an invitation to participate in from the Iraqi government. At their request we will be joining our very many partners in conducting operations into the future to provide assistance to that government in the stabilisation of their country.

HUTCHISON:

Are you getting a clearer picture of what our actual involvement will be? What will be required of our SAS personnel? What will be required of those who pilot and maintain those F/A-18 Super Hornets?

JOHNSTON:

I have a clear picture in my mind, I’m not about to discuss in detail operational activities that we will be involved in.

It’s clear that we will deploy aircraft, combat aircraft and we’ll provide heavy-lift, we’ll provide military advisers and we’ll probably provide some logistical support in the nature of surveillance and refuelling, that’s the broad perspective.

HUTCHISON:

Will we drop bombs? And I know you think I’m focussing on that question but I am interested in the language at this point in time.

JOHNSTON:

Well we don’t deploy fighter aircraft to fly them around without actually seeking to achieve our objectives.

HUTCHISON:

To drop bombs.

JOHNSTON:

To achieve our objective and that is to, firstly, protect the population, and secondly, to disrupt and degrade ISIL in their intent to establish this Islamic State and move towards destroying them.

HUTCHISON:

At 12 minutes to 9:00 you’re listening to Defence Minister David Johnston, thank you for being with us this morning David.

Gary’s question is a really good one: How will we know when that objective has been achieved?

JOHNSTON:

When we have a situation where the Iraqi Security Forces have the capacity to assert themselves appropriately across the northern part of Iraq and that the government in Baghdad is confident that they have regained control of their country.

HUTCHISON:

When have we ever known that Iraqi Security Forces have that capability? And there are also questions about the ability of the Iraqi government here.

JOHNSTON:

No one said this is going to happen overnight, but the fact is that there is an opportunity for us, through our capacity to advise and assist, to bring forward a Security Force that has the capacity to stabilise the country. We simply cannot just sit back and allow this organisation to establish a foothold into the medium or long term.

HUTCHISON:

When do we get out? I think when the Attorney-General George Brandis was asked the question he treated it yesterday as if it was an absurd question, but it’s not an unreasonable one. On what basis would we determine whether we’re there for six months, a year, two years or five years?

JOHNSTON:

When we see the direct threat to the population has abated.

HUTCHISON:

Is this a long-haul issue?

JOHNSTON:

It may be.

HUTCHISON:

And I understand that I ask questions that no one knows the answer to at this time.

JOHNSTON: That’s right.

HUTCHISON:

What about the danger that military action could strengthen Islamic State and fuel their recruiting drive or, as we heard yesterday, perhaps foster more anger towards Australia in places like Bali and Jakarta?

JOHNSTON:

I don’t think that will strengthen ISIL as much as doing nothing will. I think if we were to do nothing their strength will grow exponentially whereas if we commence degrading them I think we’ll be on the right path to dismantling them and ultimately destroying them and diverting them from their ultimate purpose.

HUTCHISON:

Do you accept that there is potential risk, particularly if we’re looking at Indonesia and jihadists, seeing what may play out over the course of the next couple of months, that Australians could be again targets in places like Bali and Jakarta? We can’t rule any of these things out can we?

JOHNSTON:

We certainly cannot. For the last 18 months our security agencies have been grappling with foreign fighters leaving Australia to go and fight in the Middle East with the contemplation of them one day coming home with exotic skills in chemical weapons, small arms and explosives.

Now that is the real threat that we must manage and were we to do nothing here that threat will grow and grow and the prophetic description of what we saw back with the Bali bombing and indeed 9/11 will be ever more possible were we to do nothing.

We have put $600 million on the table to shore up the AFP, ASIO and other security agencies and we are changing legislation to give those authorities greater and more effective powers to deal with this, but this threat has been alive for some long time since the eruption of fighting in Syria. For us to do nothing would simply mean that the threat level domestically would increase.

HUTCHISON:

My guest is the Defence Minister David Johnston. Last question Minister, we learned today – and certainly the Opposition’s been in collective lock-step towards this commitment – but the Member for Fremantle Melissa Parke has called for the issue to be debated in Parliament, breaking ranks a little bit from her side of politics, saying she’s concerned with how quickly the federal government has escalated our involvement. She fears, as I would think others might, an open-ended war, what’s your response to that concern?

JOHNSTON:

In our democracy people should express and be free to express, and I am very respectful of people who express their concerns. Indeed the Parliament should debate these matters, but remember the practical side. It’s all very well to go through the democratic processes, which I am extremely respectful of as you well know Geoff, but the fact is we have a practical problem.

We have people in Australia now who are abusing our uniformed ADF members, threatening them, who wish to commit serious criminal acts of terrorism, that’s a practical matter that we are dealing with on a day-to-day basis inside the security agencies of this country.

My responsibility and those of other ministers is first and foremost to provide a very high level of security and protection to the Australian people, all other considerations must take second place to the protection of Australian citizens.

HUTCHISON:

Thank you very much for talking to us David.

JOHNSTON:

A pleasure Geoff.