Radio interview, ABC Adelaide Drive with Jo Laverty

SUBJECT/S: Mobilization deed between ASC, BAE and the Commonwealth; ADF Workforce; Future Trump Administration. 

HOST, JO LAVERTY: It's 10 minutes past five. On 891, ABC Radio Adelaide, I'm Jo Laverty. The plans to acquire new submarines in Australia are on a very slow burn and if you have a look at the timeline, you'll see how long it's taken so far. It was in 2016 that a deal with France was announced. $55 billion for 12 diesel electric subs. 2021, that deal was controversially cancelled and a new deal signed with the US and the UK, which is now of course known as the AUKUS deal for nuclear subs. 2023, AUKUS Partners release pathways to Australia's nuclear submarine capability plan. 2024. Eight months ago, a partnership between Australian Submarine Agency, ASC and BAE Systems to build the AUKUS nucleus powered submarines in South Australia was announced. And today another announcement that a collaborative mobilisation agreement has been reached. Richard Marles is Australia's Defence Minister and Deputy Prime Minister. Good afternoon, Minister.

ACTING PRIME MINISTER, RICHARD MARLES: Good afternoon, Jo. How are you?

LAVERTY: I'm all right. What exactly is a collaborative mobilisation agreement?

MARLES: Good question. So, what we announced earlier in the year, which you referenced, was the vehicle by which we would build the future submarines in South Australia, which is going to be a joint venture between BAE who build the Astute-class submarines in Britain and who will build the British version of the nuclear powered submarines in the future. We will be building the same kind of class or the same class of submarine both in Adelaide and Britain. A joint venture between BAE and ASC, which is the Commonwealth-owned Australian-owned company which provides us ship building in South Australia. It's a complicated structure. It's important though because it means that Australia has a much greater presence, if you like, around this table over the decades to come. And this is going to be done over a number of decades. So, we felt that it was important to get the best possible position right, even if that took a bit of extra time. What we didn't want to do was to put things on hold until all that was negotiated. And so the mobilisation agreement that we've done today really enables all of those partners to get on with things until while that process is being negotiated. So, purchasing long lead items, for example, doing the workforce plan and indeed getting the workforce in place, ensuring that we are in a position to build the construction yard which is where the submarines will ultimately build. All of those steps that would be taken right now, even though we're talking about building this a fair way into the future, we've got no time to lose here. And so the mobilisation deed really enables all of that to happen whilst the joint venture is being negotiated. And really this is about making sure that we, you know, we are hitting the ground running and we are actually making this thing happen as we speak.

LAVERTY: When you say purchasing long lead items, what sort of items are they?

MARLES: Well, good question. I mean, there are a number of particularly heavy engineered components which may be made of particular materials which take some time to make and they're very bespoke to a submarine, meaning there's not a whole lot of them out there that you can purchase off a shelf and, and they take a long time to make. And so those items are actually being constructed right now lastly in Britain at the Rolls Royce facility in Britain, which is where the nuclear reactor for the submarine will actually be built. But there are long lead items being constructed right now, today, which will be on the first of the submarines which will end up going into the water out of Adelaide in the early 2000 and 40s.

LAVERTY: Wasn't the timeline 2000-30s, or am I not remembering that correctly?

MARLES: So, when we came to government, really what we inherited was a process that would not see an Australian built submarine until the early 2000-40s. And to be fair, it's hard for it to happen earlier than that because the process of building a submarine takes a lot of time and it takes even longer when you are starting that from scratch, which is in effect what we are doing in the sense that we are standing setting up a new production line. It was precisely because of that that we were very concerned about a capability gap opening up in terms of our submarine capability. And again, you rightly referenced the fact that over the last decade when the former government were in power, we were in and out of a submarine deal with Japan and then in and out of a submarine deal with France. And really there was not a lot of movement in terms of our submarines which effectively did present us with the real possibility of a 10 year capability gap between our existing submarines, the Collins class submarines and what would roll off the production line in South Australia. It's for that reason that we negotiated the purchase of three Virginia class submarines from the United States. So, these are the first of those will be a submarine which is in service now and it will have an Australian flag on it in the early 2030s. So, in that sense you're right. The way in which we are therefore evolving our submarine capability from this day through until the early 2040s is extending the life of the Collins class, purchasing Virginias in the meantime so that we have an Australian flagged vessel in the water from the early 2030s having a submarine rotational force in HMAS Stirling in Perth, which will be American submarines rotating through there so that we gain the experience of working with nuclear powered submarines. And then until the point where we've ultimately got our own submarine, Australian made submarines that are rolling off the production line here in Adelaide.

LAVERTY: You paint a great picture of how important submarines are to Australia's nuclear defence capabilities. And yet reports are there is only one submarine in the water at the moment and the others are almost non-viable at this stage. Is one enough, Minister?

MARLES: Well, I don't accept that characterisation. I mean there is always a process of maintaining submarines and really since the Coles review which goes back to the around 2010, don't quote me on that date, but it's of that order, that sort of time period having, maintaining operational levels of submarine capability, which is having two that are ready to be used if needed, has been the benchmark that we've been operating on since then. And that's consistent with international best practice around how many submarines you would have operational based on a fleet of six, which is what we have right now. Even now we have the required operational availability levels in place. And then the Chief of Navy affirmed that in the last couple of weeks.

LAVERTY: Is there only one sub in the water at the moment though?

MARLES: Well, there is an ability to have two and that's what the operational availability levels require. And that's the situation that's in place now. And as I say, the Chief of Navy has affirmed that and that's the operational benchmarks that we work to.

LAVERTY: Is the other one able to be dropped in the water at any moment and get into action?

MARLES: That's exactly what the Chief of Navy has said.

LAVERTY: And just finally you're recruiting for the ADF. I can't help but notice that South Australian Police are saying, hey, do you work for the ADF? Why don't you come and join the SA Police. So, there's obviously a bit of competition for professionals in this field. What do you have to offer that other professions who are trying to poach the same sort of people? What do you have to offer that they don't?

MARLES: Well, look, I mean, can I say that a life of service, be it wearing the uniform of South Australian Police or indeed the Australian Defence Force, are both deeply fulfilling professions and professions which make a huge difference to our country and indeed the state of South Australia. So, you know, there might be competition, but it's very healthy and either choice is great. But I think what I would say to you is one of the real privileges I have as the Minister for Defence is to spend a lot of time with people who do wear our nation's uniform and who choose a life of service. And it is an extraordinary choice to make. I mean, there is a willingness to, and a solemn willingness really to engage in sacrifice. But really the experience of that on a day to day level is deeply fulfilling, as least as I see it on the faces of the people who I meet. I mean, this is an opportunity to build people's skills to do things you would never do in civilian life, but along the way make a huge contribution to our nation at a particularly, well, complex time in terms of our country's strategic landscape and the history of our country's strategic landscape. It is, it is a noble thing to do, but it's a great thing to do in terms of building your own skills. And so we really encourage people to have a look at it. And I think this weekend as the Adelaide 500 is on, there'll be stalls where you'll be able to learn more about the Australian Defence Force. I think there's going to be a Super Hornet flying over so you'll get to see some of the amazing platforms that we operate. But it is absolutely a fantastic career which makes a difference.

LAVERTY: There is nothing like a Super Hornet going overhead to make one to join the RAAF. I'm a middle aged woman and when the last time I saw an F-35 go over, I went, I'm going to become an F-35 pilot.

MARLES: Sadly, there are age limits on recruitment.

// BREAK // 

LAVERTY: Richard Marles, Australia's Defence Minister and Deputy Prime Minister. That's just part of the conversation that I've had with him. I will share another part very shortly in which we talk about the nuclear waste plans from the nuclear submarine and, well, the rules, the law which now says that low level nuclear waste can be stored in Port Adelaide, but what does that mean for high level nuclear waste? And I also ask him what Trump says about the future of AUKUS. So, that's. I'll play that a little later.

LAVERTY: Now, Jake Hall Evans is a local resident, he's in Port Adelaide and he's organised a petition against the dump. This is what he told me. The people of Port Adelaide were promised shipbuilding jobs, not a nuclear waste dump or nuclear waste facility. And I understand that the Minister responsible has come out and said it's only low level waste. And that may be true for the meantime, but in the long run it doesn't prohibit intermediate waste or high level waste. It doesn't have a definition of what the licence will enable in the Act. In fact, motions were put forward in the Parliament and they were rejected, which did detail that it would be low level waste. The community wasn't consulted, they weren't engaged and many were unaware.

LAVERTY: Minister, does the legislation allow room for waste greater than low level to be put in Port Adelaide?

MARLES: So, I think it's really important that people are very clear about this and the scope for misinformation to be put around is large here. And in that sense it's really important that not occur and that there's not, you know, a fear placed in the minds of the community. What we are talking about in terms of the need to be handling nuclear waste in Port Adelaide is low level. So, to be clear about what we're talking about there, this is kind of gloves, it's cloths, it's PPE, it's the sort of material that would be generated in any hospital around Adelaide or the country right now which engages in nuclear medicine. That's the sort of waste that we're talking about. In terms of higher level waste, we have made it clear that we, I mean, there will be ultimately a need to dispose of the nuclear reactors themselves. That's the high level nuclear waste. We're not looking at needing to do that until those reactors come to the end of their life, which is the early 2050s. And what we've made clear is that we were have a process in place by which a site is determined. But clearly that will be in a place which is not proximate to populations, which is in geologically stable areas and which will be on defence land. And that is definitely not going to be happening in Port Adelaide. So, you know, I think it is important that people understand what's being, you know, proposed here. And yeah, there is a nuclear reactor inside of the submarine. It generates that kind of PPE, which happens right now in hospitals all around the country. There will be a need to dispose of that, which I might say is happening in hospitals and other sites around the country. But that's what we're talking about and we're not talking about anything else.

LAVERTY: Has President elect Donald Trump said anything about AUKUS yet?

MARLES: Well, what we've seen from the Trump Republicans is support for AUKUS. And that's not just by virtue of word, although it is by virtue of word. It's also by virtue of action. I mean, this time last year we had legislation go through the United States Congress which really enabled AUKUS that included, for example, the legislation which permitted the sale of the Virginia class submarines, which I was describing earlier legislation which has created really a seamless defence industrial base between our two countries, which is so important in terms of seeing the transition of technology. All of that was legislation that was supported by Democrats Republicans and Trump Republicans. And so, you know, AUKUS has been a policy which has been supported across the political spectrum in the United States, including those who have been in support of President Trump. And that's why we do have a sense of confidence about the future, not only of the alliance between Australia and America, but our key equities in the alliance of which AUKUS is front and centre.

LAVERTY: Alright, so thumbs up on that hopefully.

MARLES: Indeed.

ENDS