Radio interview, RN Breakfast

SUBJECT/S: Ukraine conflict; Sentencing of Mr Gordon Ng; Annual Cyber Threat Report; Electoral reform

HOST, STEVE CANNANE: The Acting Prime Minister and Defence Minister Richard Marles joins us now. Thanks for your time.

ACTING PRIME MINISTER, RICHARD MARLES: Good morning Steve, how are you?

CANNANE: Good, thank you. Let's talk about these latest actions in Ukraine. Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has accused the US of trying to escalate the conflict. And we've also heard that President Putin has now approved a change to Russia's nuclear policy to allow Russia to use nuclear weapons if it was subject to a conventional missile assault supported by a nuclear power. What's your reaction to those comments and that shift in Russia's nuclear doctrine?

MARLES: Well it's completely reprehensible on the part of Russia. I mean there's only one country which is talking about using nuclear weapons and that's Russia and that is utterly appalling. Russia's cooperation with North Korea such that we now have North Korean troops massing on the Ukrainian border is an appalling escalation in what is already an appalling conflict. And of course this conflict began with Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine which was not trying to resolve any difference by reference to international law. It was simply trying to impose itself on a neighbour by reference to power and might. And so we need to be standing with Ukraine. What's at issue here is the global rules based order which is very much in Australia's national interest. And that's why we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes for this conflict to be resolved on its terms.

CANNANE: So, you don't see it as a dangerous escalation from the US to allow them, to give them the green light to use these missiles to strike on Russian territory.

MARLES: No, this is Ukraine defending itself. I mean Ukraine is the country that was attacked. It was Russia which crossed the border into Ukraine and began this war. And Ukraine has a right to defend itself. It's not Ukraine who's talking about an escalation to a nuclear level. That's what's happening with- that's Russia which is doing that. So, at every point it is Russia which is escalating this. Ukraine clearly has a right to defend itself and we very much respect that. And more than that we are supporting Ukraine and we will stand with Ukraine, as I said, for as long as it takes for them to resolve this conflict on their terms.

CANNANE: A parliamentary inquiry dominated by Labor MP says reopening the Australian embassy in Kyiv would strengthen our ties with Ukraine. And they also want to see a military attache there to help with training and weapons and military aid that is going into the country. Will you, will the government, the Albanese government, reopen that embassy and follow the advice of that report?

MARLES: Well, it's something we want to do. We've been wanting to do it for some time. We do have our ambassador in the region who operates out of Warsaw. This is a matter of making sure, obviously in the context of a war zone that we can open this in a manner which is safe for all of those who would be in the embassy. And so this continues to be a work in progress around how that can be done. But you know, we are engaging closely with Ukraine. When I was in Ukraine earlier this year, I was with our ambassador and we went into Ukraine together and our ambassador does go there frequently. And so, you know, we're obviously maintaining our relationship very closely with the Ukrainian government and that's being expressed through the support that we are providing to the Ukrainian Government in terms of this conflict. We'll continue to work on the issue of the embassy and assess the safety of reopening it in Kyiv.

CANNANE: But dozens of other countries like Canada, who share the embassy grounds with Australia in Kyiv, they reopened their embassies, many of them months after the full scale invasion happened. Why is the government, the Australian government, being so timid compared to other western allies?

MARLES: Well, again, we're focused on the main issue here, which is providing support to Ukraine in terms of their conflict. And over the course of this year, you know, we have been announcing more than half a billion dollars in military assistance to Ukraine. I mean, the tempo of our support for Ukraine has actually increased given the circumstances that they are facing. And we are continuing to do this and we will continue to do it for as long as this war lasts. That's what we are focused on. The embassy is an important issue and we’ll continue to work on it. We are clearly mindful of the Australian diplomats who are currently serving to make sure that they can return in a manner that's safe.

CANNANE: On Radio National Breakfast, it's 18 minutes to 8:00. We're talking to Acting Prime Minister, Richard Marles. I wanted to bring you to the Hong Kong court which has sent Australian man Gordon Ng to jail for more than seven years as part of a mass sentencing targeting dozens of pro democracy activists under the territory's sweeping national security laws. What is your reaction to an Australian, a dual citizen, being jailed in that fashion?

MARLES: Well, we are very concerned specifically about the sentence that has been applied to Gordon Ng and we will continue to make representations in respect of that, in respect of the sentence. But beyond that, as you say, we are very concerned about the application of the national security law in Hong Kong. And obviously in terms of how it's been applied to Gordon Ng, and that's a point that we made when the original conviction occurred. I mean, this is deeply concerning to us. It is a matter that we will continue to raise with the Chinese government in all of our advocacy. And this is a consular matter which is front and centre in terms of the way in which we are engaging with China.

CANNANE: This year's Annual Cyber Threat Report has just come out and it's detailed how malicious state and non state cyber actors are continuing to target Australians. Which states are targeting us and how are they doing it?

MARLES: Well, firstly we are seeing a report to ASD, which is the Australian Signals Directorate, which is the agency which deals with this. Once every six minutes- and the cost of each of those attacks is going up- an 8 per cent increase for small businesses, a 17 per cent increase for individuals. As you said, we are worryingly seeing an increased focus by both cyber criminals and state actors on our critical infrastructure. And that's something which has become much more prevalent in the course of the last year and does form a significant part of this report. In the course of the last year, one of the actions that we take is attribution. We have raised attribution in respect of China, in respect of Russia, in respect of Iran. We do so very carefully in circumstances where we can but attribution is an important tool that we have applied more in the last year than we have ever done. And that builds upon the fact that fundamentally, you know, this is a clear and present threat. Like it's something which is being experienced by Australia right now. And it's why we're pretty well doubling the size of this Australian Signals Directorate over the course of about a five year period. That represents a hugely significant investment. Steve, the point that we really wanted to make in announcing this- or releasing this report today is really in respect of businesses. It's really important that businesses understand what IT systems they have in their business. That might seem obvious, but lots of businesses aren't aware of older or legacy IT systems that they have operating, which often can be a backdoor for criminals to get into their business. It's really important that people understand this is an evolving threat. So, you can't really do your cyber defence in the sense of set and forget. You've actually got to continually update it and to make sure that it evolves as the threat evolves. And the final point is it's really important that businesses work with ASD. They are the national experts. They're an incredible asset and they really can help.

CANNANE: Okay, I want to bring you to the government's electoral reform legislation. Independent Jacqui Lambie has accused the government of trying to rush the bill through the Parliament. We had not time for the independents to get across it. Why have you waited till what could be the final two sitting weeks before the election to introduce such a significant bill that doesn't even apply to an election due to be held in 2028?

MARLES: Well, we obviously don't accept the proposition that this has been rushed. I mean, we've been working on this legislation for a long period of time and working across the Parliament in respect of it. And we want to introduce that in a way which allows everyone to be able to adjust to it, which is why we're not talking about this election in terms of when it would apply, but the one after that. But Steve, fundamentally in relation to this reform, what we're trying to do is make sure that people who seek public office do so on equal terms and that this is not something where big money can have an undue influence. 

CANNANE: Okay.

MARLES: Donation caps are an important tool which we need to use in terms of protecting our democracy, which are used by countries around the world in protecting their democracies. And it's really important that this is done in the most transparent way, with realtime reporting. So, you know, listeners should understand that's what's at the heart of these reforms. Putting in place donation caps so that big money doesn't have an undue influence and making sure that there is transparency. Now, I'm not saying that- 

CANNANE: Can I ask you whether the unions will have undue influence? Because under your proposed reforms, at election time, each individual union will be able to spend up to $11 million- that's on top of registered political parties like the Labor Party having a ceiling of $90 million.

MARLES: This applies across the board evenly and it is about making sure that there are appropriate caps in place. And I would have thought that across the Parliament, every parliamentarian would welcome the idea that there are caps on the amount of money that can be applied. And it applies equally to Labor, to Liberal, to every Member of Parliament, or to every political party, including Independents and that there is realtime, transparent reporting. That's what we're trying to do here. We're not trying to, you know, upend the boat in a week or in a short amount of time, we've been working methodically and thoroughly with people across the parliament. We want this to be bipartisan or multipartisan, really, so that everyone has support for this.

CANNANE: Okay.

MARLES: But this is sensible reform, which is about putting in place modern electoral laws which protect our democracy and that's an important step for the government to take.

CANNANE: Richard Marles, we'll have to leave it there. Thanks very much for your time.

MARLES: Thanks, Steve.

ENDS