Television Interview, ABC Afternoon Briefing

SUBJECTS: Visit by the Prime Minister of Qatar; Middle East conflict; Australia-Indonesia Defence Cooperation Agreement. 

GREG JENNETT, HOST: Ok, so we are now going to try to work out the contours, if not the contents itself, of that looming defence agreement with Indonesia that Richard Marles had forecast back in February could be, quote, the deepest, most significant defence agreement between our two nations in our respective histories. 

Pleased to say that the Deputy Prime Minister is with us now. Richard Marles, welcome back to the program. I know you've just come from discussions with the visiting Qatari Prime Minister and Foreign Minister, both in town here at the moment. They also met Penny Wong. Not quite certain of the scope of those conversations, but of course, making world headlines at the moment is the fact that the Qatari government, along with Egypt, is playing a pivotal role in trying to broker peace in the Middle East. Antony Blinken, your friend, has described a bridging proposal that has been put. Does Australia look to the Qataris to drive this home and how did you press that point?

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Well, we certainly do respect the role that the Qatari government has played in trying to mediate an end to really, the catastrophe that we are seeing play out in the Middle East. And I think they have been doing very important work in trying to negotiate a ceasefire. We've certainly added our voice in support of the work that we're doing and obviously in support of the ceasefire– the proposed ceasefire agreement that President Biden put forward a month or two ago, so–

JENNETT: Did you get a sense of their optimism about reaching a conclusion on that?

MARLES: Look, they are very persistent. They intend to stay on the task. Obviously, this is very challenging– that's to state the obvious. But I have got to say, when you listen to the Prime Minister talk about his efforts, where he's travelled, the people he's met and the effort that he's going to, there's really no more important work in the world today than what he's doing to try and bring about peace.

JENNETT: Globally significant. Thank you for those insights. Why don't we move on to Prabowo Subianto's visit now. So, you've ended negotiations but are yet to sign this new bilateral defence relationship. Give us an example of an activity that ADF members may participate in in Indonesia that will be facilitated by this agreement that mightn't currently happen or would be too difficult to organise.

MARLES: Well, what this does is really streamline the means by which our defence forces interact with each other. That's probably the way to put it. And the result of streamlining it will mean that there is much more activity. It really is a statement of strategic trust between our two countries. So, this is going to improve interoperability between our defence forces. It will see us do more exercises together in both of our countries. It will see us work together more in terms of operating in the global commons in support of the rules-based order and I think that's really important. It will allow us, and this is perhaps the most important point, to operate from each other's countries. Now at the moment for that to occur, and it does occur from time to time, there's a process by which you go through for each and every occasion on which you set foot. This, in a sense creates a standard by which we can operate from each other's countries and that means we'll do it more.

JENNETT: Are there limits to the sorts of activities, exercises I'm thinking of mainly, that the ADF might participate in? Would they, for instance, take part in exercises in West Papua, where it was the Indonesian government's desire to use that as a show of force against secessionists?

MARLES: We are engaging in exercises with Indonesia right now. Obviously, we work through a program of exercises with Indonesia. I'm not going to go into hypotheticals like that– 

JENNETT: But you can get the political sensitivity around that scenario?

MARLES: Well, let me make this point: in the broader sense, in any negotiation that we do with any country, we clearly bring to bear our values in respect of human rights. But I'd also make this point: in respect of Papua, Australia completely recognises the territorial integrity of Indonesia. No ifs, no butts. And that's been a consistent position on the part of the Albanese Government, but in truth, it's been a consistent position on governments of all persuasions in Australia over a long period of time. And that is very much the position that we take into these negotiations. And I think that's in– I mean, the territorial integrity of Indonesia is fundamentally important for Australia's national interest and recognising that is very much at the heart of the agreement that we've struck with Indonesia.

JENNETT: Does this agreement oblige either country to do anything for each other in the event of an external threat?

MARLES: Well, this is not an alliance, as such. I mean, Indonesia has a proud history of being non-aligned. But what this does represent is a much greater ease by which we cooperate with each other in terms of defence as I've described. And I think in that deeper sense, what we can take from this is really a new level of strategic trust which exists between Australia and Indonesia. This is very much both countries saying to each other that we see our respective security as being embedded in each other. And that's, you know, when you think about the history of both our countries, the journey that we've been on over many decades, it's actually a historically profound moment to be at a point where we do see our security lying in each other. 

JENNETT: Particularly with Pak Prabowo becoming president very, very shortly. The agreement covers maritime security. Does that address unauthorised boat arrivals in the sea gap between our two countries?

MARLES: Again, what this does is provide much, much greater opportunity and ease by which our defence forces can operate together. In terms of that, what we have seen is a high level of cooperation between our two countries. But I would say right now that's at an unprecedentedly high level. I mean, we are working really closely with Indonesia in respect of unlawful maritime arrivals, we– 

JENNETT: Just explain that. What does that look like?

MARLES: Oh, well we do an enormous amount of intelligence sharing. In terms of what is happening, we do work together in terms of providing information around surveillance. There are dimensions to this which I can't go into–

JENNETT: Sure, but has that been stepped up, though, in recent times, in light of what we can discern on limited information here in Australia, is an increase in attempted arrivals?

MARLES: What I would say is that I think there's been an increase in our cooperation. I think you have seen that over the course of the last year. And that's been hugely advantageous for Australia. I very much hope it's been advantageous for Indonesia as well. I mean–

JENNETT: So, does that mean fewer turnbacks by Australian authorities because Indonesian authorities are doing more at point of departure or within their 12 nautical mile territorial waters?

MARLES: Again, it's difficult for me to go into the specifics of that. I very much understand that question, though. I mean, I think the level of cooperation that we are engaging in, in respect of this is definitely yielding results for Australia, but also for Indonesia. And, I mean, this is a problem that's not unique to Australia. And I think what's different is that we really do see this as a shared challenge which is being experienced by both of our countries. And we want to understand not just how Indonesia can help us in respect to this, but how we can help Indonesia. And I think that really has taken us a lot further down the road than we've been before.

JENNETT: Your comments are somewhat illuminating on that, Richard, because it's a matter of record that more boats have made it to mainland Australia in recent months. But if they're also being prevented in large number, that indicates that the problem, for want of a better word, on unauthorised arrivals is much greater than most Australians would be aware.

MARLES: Again, I'm not going to enter into that speculation. I mean, there is an issue around the world– it is an issue which is experienced throughout Southeast Asia, Indonesia experiences it. I think that the fundamental point is this, we are working very closely together in an unprecedentedly cooperative way and what that is doing is seeing us being able to manage this issue for the benefit of Australia and for the benefit of Indonesia. And that's a very positive step forward.

JENNETT: All right, you'll travel to, is it Jakarta, when to sign off on this deal?

MARLES: Look, I'll be there next week. It won't be Jakarta, it'll be another part of Indonesia, but–

JENNETT: Not Nusantara by any chance?

MARLES: It will be in Java, I can say that. But I'm looking forward to going there next week to sign this agreement. And it really will be a very historic moment. I mean, this is certainly the deepest and, as you say, most significant defence agreement we've ever signed. In many respects, it's the most significant agreement we've ever signed. It really is a statement of strategic trust between our two countries. This is a historic milestone on the journey of both our countries.

JENNETT: We'll keep an eye on its implementation and effects. Richard Marles, I know you've had a lot on your plate between Question Time, the Qataris and other obligations– really appreciate it.

MARLES: Thanks, Greg.

ENDS