Radio Interview, ABC Far North

SUBJECTS: Australia’s Strategic Circumstances; Indo-Pacific Partnerships; Defence Funding; Northern Bases; Cairns Common User Facility; AUKUS; Defence Force Assistance for Natural Disasters.

CHARLIE MCKILLOP, HOST: The man whose job it is to protect Australia’s interests and keep you safe is right here in ABC Far North, he’s the Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Richard Marles. Welcome back to Cairns, Minister. 

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Morning, Charlie. How are you?

MCKILLOP: Really well, delighted that we're having got some great questions coming through on the text line. It takes the pressure off me, that's for sure. But I guess that increasing influence that you just heard from that gentleman talking about there of China, it's inescapable. We talk to residents in the Torres Strait who tell us about the increasing incursion of fishing boats in our territorial waters, the new airstrips and roads that are being funded by the Chinese government in the western provinces of Papua New Guinea right on our doorstep. Are we right to be worried, Minister?

MARLES: Well, I think we face the most complex and in some ways, the most threatening set of strategic circumstances that we've had since the end of the Second World War. So, when you listen to the callers that you've had and those comments that you just played then I think that that does reflect a pretty reasonable anxiety that people have about where the world is going right now. And it is challenging. There are lots of difficulties out there. You only, as you mentioned, need to at the conflicts that are happening in Ukraine or the Middle East to give you a sense of that. In our region, the thing that really shapes things more than anything else is that over the last decade or more, we have seen China engage in the biggest conventional military buildup since the end of the Second World War. That is a stark fact which really shapes the world, actually, but shapes the region particularly in which we live. And so, as a result, we need to be very thoughtful about our own capabilities. We are boosting defence spending. We ourselves are engaged in the biggest increase in defence spending, peacetime increase in defence spending since the end of the Second World War, so that we increase our capabilities. But it's also really important that we are managing our relationships and improving those with countries like Papua New Guinea, but with Indonesia, but also, you know, further afield, the likes of Japan, India, Korea, and of course, the United States.

MCKILLOP: So, we're not just toying around, as that gentleman put it? I mean, is funding an NRL team in Port Moresby going to cut it when it comes to securing our geopolitical place in the world?

MARLES: Look, I think actually that step has been really important because we need to be much more imaginative about how we improve our relations with the countries of the region. And one of the things that we have which is such an advantage for us in terms of countries in the Pacific is a sense of affinity. There's a whole lot of ways in which the countries of the Pacific and the peoples of the Pacific look to Australia. Now, one of those is sport. You know, rugby league is a massive sport in PNG and this has been a long held dream of Papua New Guinea to have a team in the NRL. And to now see the realisation of that dream, you know, greatly connects us with that country. And it's something that no one else can do, no other country can do. And so, you know, I think is actually a really important step forward and it's part of a suite of measures that we've taken which sees our relationship with Papua New Guinea closer today than it's ever been and that's really important. And yes, that's happening in a kind of cultural, sports cultural area like rugby league, but it's happening in defence. Our defence-to-defence relationship with Papua New Guinea has never been closer. We've never been doing more exercises, operations, looking at joint recruitment, you know, a whole range of areas where we are very close in that respect. We're about to, you know, we've announced that we'll be doing a Defence Cooperation Agreement with Papua New Guinea. These are really important steps forward. And from the perspective of Cairns, that matters because in so many ways, Cairns is our more than our gateway, it's really our connection, I think, with PNG. And, you know, there's a lot of PNG expats who are in Cairns. Cairns is such an asset in terms of our relationship with Papua New Guinea and that's only going to become more so going forward.

MCKILLOP: Richard Marles, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence, is with you on ABC Far North. We're talking about defence priorities, you've outlined an increase in defence spending. One of the issues in defence is that reforms don't happen easily. You've overseen the Defence Strategic Review, which really put Northern Australia at the forefront. It highlighted the role of our existing air bases, like the Scherger RAAF Base at Weipa. When are you going to dust off the mothballs there and whip Scherger into shape, Minister?

MARLES: Well, we're investing another $21 million now in Scherger, and that goes into things like increased fuel storage, better ordnance handling mechanisms. So, we are investing significantly in Scherger, but right across our northern bases. And that's not just air bases, that would include a place like HMAS Cairns. We're spending $3.8 billion over the next few years to really ramp up the capability there. So, if you look at HMAS Cairns, that's about trying to make sure that it can be a centre of maintenance and logistics. It's really fleet base northeast. It is the place from which we project into the Pacific particularly and so we are seeing very significant investments in northern bases. You can do a kind of arc from Cocos Islands right through the northwest of Western Australia, through the Northern Territory, but then to Scherger and HMAS Cairns, and this is so important in terms of giving us the platform to project. And that's really why our northern bases were highlighted as being such an important asset in our national security.

MCKILLOP: HMAS Cairns, though, didn't feature as prevalently in the Defence Strategic Review. And I'm just wondering, what is the vision there? Obviously you've already heard from the business community yesterday when you were attending the Advanced Cairns luncheon. How much is invested in this city in the future of the common user facility? And central to that is the 5000 tonne shiplift that would really make us a maritime maintenance hub for the defence and for the maritime industry. Now, that was to be a $360 million project that was to be jointly funded by the federal and state government. But so far nothing's happened and there are some that are worried that it might never happen if the costs continue to blow out. What conversations are you having with your state counterparts about finally getting this project happening?

MARLES: Well, in relation to the Common User Facility, I mean, in many ways the ball is in the state's court in the sense that we've made our commitment and we’re– you know, that commitment remains. We think the Common User Facility is really important and we are in conversations with the state government about its future. But ultimately it is a matter for the state government as to what they're going to do. This can really only be done jointly and we really need to understand from them how they see the future in terms of a Common User Facility.

MCKILLOP: Yeah, but you're the one that's got a budget next week at an election soon after that.

MARLES: And we've made the commitment and that commitment stands. But ultimately this is a joint project and we need to understand what our partner in that project is intending. From our point of view, you know, the commitment that we put on the table remains there. So, there's no question about where the Federal Government lines up in relation to this. We really need to now see what the state's intent is in respect of the Common User Facility. But the point I was going to make is that, you know, I was down in the maritime precinct yesterday and you can see it is such an asset, as you rightly say, not just for commercial shipping, but also for naval shipping as well. And that's not just Australian Navy ships, but there are, we looked at, there was a Cook Islands Guardian class boat that was there being renovated yesterday and it's going to be there for some time today. Part of my being in Cairns is we are recommissioning a Vanuatu Guardian class patrol boat, the RVS Takuare, which is going to be a really important handover to the Vanuatu government. But it's a really good example of the capability of the maritime maintenance sector here in Cairns as it is about the way in which Cairns really is the place that we connect to the Pacific, and yes to PNG, but to a country like Vanuatu and to Solomon Islands. That whole maritime precinct is a national asset and it is a place where there are many, many defence industry jobs right now. But I think that it definitely has the opportunity to grow as we see really Cairns become even more strategic going forward.

MCKILLOP: Minister Marles, you seem to be making a very strong case for an extra commitment from the Federal Government to make sure that the Queensland government doesn't squib on their commitment to this project. I mean, you could take the leadership here.

MARLES: Well, as I say, our commitment in relation to the Common User Facility is there we– 

MCKILLOP: Half of $360 million doesn't sound like it's going to cut it.

MARLES: Well, this was always a joint project. We need to understand where our partner's at in relation to doing this joint project. And that's fundamentally the issue here. We are talking with the state government, but it's in a sense now for them to answer the question as to what their intention is with the Common User Facility. But from our end we see this as important and that's why our commitment remains. And while that's in place, we will continue to invest in HMAS Cairns to make it in its own sense a maintenance and logistics hub and it remains a really, really important component for the Navy. We are investing in HMAS Cairns, making it Arafura class ready. So, the Arafura class is the future offshore patrol vessel that we are currently building. So, we see it as a really important asset going forward.

MCKILLOP: Okay, Minister Marles, we've only got five more minutes with you, so I and I've made a rod for my back here because I've got some excellent questions from my listeners. I think you've answered. Rob from, he was asking about the RAAF base at Scherger. Bryn would like to know, do you have any plans to maintain a submarine force when the Collins class subs are all unserviceable and we haven't taken any delivery of the Virginia class submarines because the Americans just can't spare them.

MARLES: Well, it's not right to describe the Collins class in those terms. The Collins class remain a really capable submarine. Right now they are, well, a long range submarine and would be one of the most capable long range diesel electric submarines in the world today. And we, you know, we see them as well that they are our capability and we are in the process of extending the life of the entire class of Collins submarines. But it is a challenge. We don't have the first Australian flagged Virginia class submarine until the early 2030s. When the Collins class were originally constructed, it was imagined that they would be coming to their end of Life in the 2020s. So, now what we had under the former Liberal government was really a lost decade in relation to our submarine capability. I mean, they were in and out of a deal with Japan and then in and out of a deal with France. And it wasn't for eight years until they finally fixed on a solution which actually we're the ones who are now in the process of delivering. And when we came to government, there really was the prospect of a capability gap, as your caller indicated, without. I mean, at that point there was no prospect of a future nuclear powered submarine in our fleet until the early 2040s. We've brought that back ten years. We do need to extend the life of Collins. It is a challenge, but we can do it.

MCKILLOP: I think the underlying point being made in that text, if I can be so bold, is have we put too many of our strategic eggs in the AUKUS basket? That looks, well, it looks quite risky the more that we see of Donald Trump and his attitude towards us and other long standing Western allies.

MARLES: Well, firstly, there's no submarine shop out there. And so without AUKUS, you know, there isn't an answer as we saw the former government attempt to find one, in relation to what the future of our Collins class submarines is- like what is the successor to them. And as I said, they're coming to the end of their life, we are extending their life. But all of that is very challenging. I would make clear that, you know, AUKUS is an arrangement not just with the United States, but also with the United Kingdom. And the United Kingdom plays a really important part in terms of our future submarine capability as well. The submarines that we will be building in Australia will be jointly. The class of submarines will be jointly operated by ourselves and the United Kingdom. So, that's a very important piece of the puzzle. But fundamentally, when it comes to AUKUS, this is a deal which is in the interests of all three countries. And you've now seen since AUKUS was first announced, changes of government in the United Kingdom, the United States and indeed in Australia and the successor governments are all supporting AUKUS because it makes sense in terms of the national interests of all three countries. And so I'm very confident about its future.

MCKILLOP: Okay, let's go for, I've got one more question on the international front from Tracey in Cairns, who says by the way, congratulations on the Canada deal- although I'm not quite sure that the deal has been sealed. But with Trump's nominee for the Under Secretary of Defence recently casting doubts on AUKUS issues around suitability of size and type of the submarines, is there a plan B? She asks.

MARLES: Well, I think this is reference to Bridge Colby's testimony, which was actually positive about AUKUS. And when people read the full testimony, that's where Bridge Colby was at-

MCKILLOP: But what about our relationship with the UK would that still, how would that effect it if we were to, if there was doubt about future AUKUS? 

MARLES: Well, I had my meeting with the Secretary of Defence in the United States who was very positive about AUKUS. So, I mean, I understand, I'm going to- we'll be constantly asked these questions and it's fair enough. There's a lot at stake here and I will be, and people in my position will be asked these questions, I suspect a decade from now. But the fact of the matter is that all three governments are committed to AUKUS. There is a treaty underpinning it. We are all supportive of it. That's where the comments consistently indicate that. And it's not just comments, it's actually deeds. When you look at the way in which Trump Republicans have voted in the Congress, they have voted in support of the measures which enable AUKUS. But we are very much developing our relationship with the United Kingdom as well. And we continue to walk down this path. And it is really important in terms of making sure that in the future we have a growing more capable submarine capability, which is so important for us, given that we are an island nation with the need to have a long range submarine capability.

MCKILLOP: Minister Marles, I just have one. I want to bring us back to our region in Far North Queensland before we let you go. The Australian Defence Force has been called upon to assist in times of disaster and emergency at home. And I think you may have heard Anne in Cairns asking earlier, why were, why were there not Air Force planes deployed? When we saw our depleted supermarket shelves for a period of weeks during the recent floods? There were others, after our worst ever flood disaster in Jasper, 17-15 months ago, who were angry that there weren't boots on the ground. No one came to assist some of our remote communities who were entirely cut off for weeks. We were told over and over by the Defence Department at that time that Defence is not a first responder in emergencies. We were directed to the National Emergency Management Authority. And yet just the other day I saw you standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the Prime Minister promising to do exactly that, to have defence boots on the ground to help people in the lead up. And the aftermath of Tropical Cyclone Alfred, why the difference in the messaging? We don't understand.

MARLES: Yeah, so we are seeing, well actually with the change of climate, we are seeing a much greater frequency of disaster events. There is a much bigger call on defence's capabilities and that's fair enough and that is understood, but it is something which is a challenge for defence. We can definitely help in the context of disasters, but it's not the primary function of defence. What came out of the Defence Strategic Review and what has been an ongoing conversation with ourselves, National Emergency Management Australia and state emergency services is where defence fits into this. And it's always been understood that defence is the last port of call- that it is the last call that is made and that is important. We don't have a capability to proactively respond like where, and that's a legal thing and it's appropriate. Where defence comes in, in a disaster is where we are asked by the civil authorities to perform a particular task-

MCKILLOP: But I think people were asking, I don't understand why they're ready and able to help in Lismore and in Townsville but not in Far North Queensland.

MARLES: Well, the way this works is that there are the state emergency services and those who are in control of the response to a disaster and their civil authorities, they work out what request is made of defence. And I suppose and to answer the question earlier, yes, it is important that we over the medium term are working to see that defence is the last port of call. But to be clear, when that call is made, defence will always be. And that's what happened recently with Cyclone Alfred. But to be frank, it's what's happened whenever there has been a natural disaster. So, when the call is made on defence, we are always there. The call is made by the civil authorities. So, as to when, to what capability is needed or I suppose more of the point, what, what issue or situation needs to be responded to is a matter that's determined by the civil authorities. But when the call is made to defence. We are always there-

MCKILLOP: Well I saw you speaking with Sarah Ferguson on Thursday night before Cyclone Alfred had even kind of started impacting the coastline around South East Queensland, offering saying the Defence Department was ready, the defence forces were ready to be there in Brisbane's time of need. You were offering-

MARLES: Well, because- 

MCKILLOP: Had you already had a call from the Premier saying that it was going to be beyond the state's capability?

MARLES: What we had there was a cyclone which was developing off, you know, a major population centre. It was inevitable that there would be a call made on defence. And yeah, we plan for events, I mean we plan for the disaster season. So, in that sense it's not like we are sitting there doing our thing and then suddenly someone rings. Clearly we are planning in relation to that and that's what I was speaking to at that moment. And the call did come through and when it did we were ready to respond.

MCKILLOP: Defence Minister Richard Marles, thank you very much for your time this morning.

MARLES: Pleasure.

ENDS