Television Interview, ABC 730

SUBJECTS: Australia-Indonesia Defence Cooperation Agreement; Pacific. 

HOST, SARAH FERGUSON: Richard Marles, welcome to 730. 

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER, RICHARD MARLES: Thanks, Sarah. 

FERGUSON: What will this agreement change in the defence relationship between Australia and Indonesia? 

MARLES: Well, the Defence Cooperation Agreement that we signed today with Indonesia is really the deepest, most significant defence agreement we've ever had with Indonesia. What it does is facilitate and streamline all the interactions that we have between our two defence forces, so that you don't need to be negotiating permissions every time you do an exercise. The significance of that is that it will make it much more easy for us to do more exercises, to be more interoperable, for us to work together more on shared interests, like asserting the rules-based order, which obviously matters to both of our countries. And I think in the in the immediate term, what we will see as a result of this is a much increased tempo of defence exercises between our two countries and indeed– well, there's a defence exercise going on as we speak, but in November with Exercise Keris Woomera we will see the biggest ever defence exercise between Indonesia and Australia.

FERGUSON: Now you're describing this as the most significant agreement ever, then it must go further than the 1995 agreement, which was hugely significant at the time ‑ an agreement which contemplated either party coming to the aid of the other if threatened or attacked. So does this agreement contemplate the same thing? 

MARLES: It is different to the 1995 agreement. The 1995 agreement was, as you rightly say, a huge moment in the bilateral relationship. It was broader than just defence and did provide for, as you say, a consultative mechanism between our two countries when our interests are being challenged. This, though, is much more detailed in terms of being specifically applying to defence. So, what this enables is us to operate from each other's countries, for example, and will have in place a standard permission, if I could put it that way, that allows that activity to occur. Perhaps the way to link the two is to understand that what this represents today is really a moment which is similar in terms of the level of strategic trust which exists between our two countries at this moment in time. 

FERGUSON: There's no question that the exercises that you're talking about are significant, but I still don't see how it can be as significant as that original agreement, unless you are contemplating that same thing, which is coming to the aid of the other if threatened. Are we saying that Australia would do something similar now under this agreement? 

MARLES: Well, the 1995 agreement is still there, I think it’s important to– 

FERGUSON: Let me interrupt, the 1995 agreement was abrogated- it’s not still there.

MARLES: Well, I think what's important to understand, is that we're not talking about an alliance. So, you know, Indonesia has a proud history of non-alignment. We understand that and in fact, in respecting it, we really like the fact that we have a non-aligned Indonesia on our northern border. But what this does is enable a much greater degree of cooperation between our two countries. It is not a military alliance in that way, but it is a statement of strategic trust. It is a statement of the fact that our two countries see that we have security in each other, and that by working more closely together, our position is enhanced.

FERGUSON: You just said that we like having a non-aligned neighbour to the north. But how much can we really work closely with the Indonesian military given Prabowo Subianto’s ambition, declared ambition to work closely with the Chinese and Russian militaries.

MARLES: Well, we can work really closely together and we are. I meant, Exercise Keris Woomera is an example of exactly that-

FERGUSON: So how should Australians think about this agreement? Bearing in mind what I just said, that Prabowo says he wants to increase cooperation with China and with Russia, and he referred to Putin as a great friend. 

MARLES: This is not a change in Indonesia's historic position of strategic non-alignment. What this does represent is our two countries finding security in each other, working much more closely together, seeing that there is a benefit in our militaries being more interoperable, of working more closely together, of doing more to assert where we do have common interests and the rules-based order, notions like freedom of navigation, are all matters which are very much consistent between our two countries. And the fact that we have this as a high point in our relationship, given our geography, given how important Indonesia is to us, is a moment which I think greatly enhances Australia's national security, as I think it does Indonesia's national security.

FERGUSON: Is Australia going to help Indonesia detect the presence of Chinese navy in or under the water? 

MARLES: I wouldn't speak specifically on a question of that kind. I think you will see much greater cooperation across every domain between the Australian Defence Force and the TNI, and that would include in terms of maritime– 

FERGUSON: Just for the sake of the audience, the TNI is the abbreviation for the Indonesian military. 

MARLES: The Indonesian defence force, I'm sorry. That would include greater activities in terms of maritime domain awareness. Again, Indonesia–

FERGUSON: Just tell us what that means when you say maritime domain awareness, put that in plain speak. 

MARLES: Well, I think that is having a sense of what is happening on the seas around us. We are both– 

FERGUSON: That sounds closer to the answer yes to the question of would we help Indonesia detect the presence of China on or under the water?

MARLES: Again, I don't want to be specific to a country. What we're about is improving Indonesia's capability, as we are about increasing our interoperability and our engagement with Indonesia. I mean the benefit for Indonesia in this is literally the opportunity to improve their capability through working more closely with Australia. We certainly want to facilitate that. And again, I think a stronger Indonesia in terms of its military capability is very much in Australia's national interest. 

FERGUSON: So would Australia have a role in helping Indonesia if the Chinese made a more aggressive move on the Natuna Islands that Indonesia regards as its exclusive economic zone. Is that something you envisage? 

MARLES: Again, I'm not going to walk down a path of a hypothetical. What we're interested in is improving Indonesian capability, and that's what this agreement will help facilitate from Indonesia's point of view as it builds a much greater engagement, interoperability, from our point of view. 

FERGUSON: In the event of conflict to the north of Australia. Does this mean that Australia- that Australian nuclear-powered submarines would be able to pass at depth through Indonesian waters, and also would our planes be able to fly through Indonesian airspace?

MARLES: Well, I mean, we observe all the rules of the sea and airspace in terms of the way in which we engage, and Indonesia is completely aware of that. Again, what this means is that with our nearest neighbour, with a country with whom, whatever our relationship is like, we have a shared destiny, we can now move forward with that destiny being one of a deep cooperation, deep trust and deep understanding, and that can only be to our benefit.

FERGUSON: I want to ask you a question about the issue of the hot mic incident in the Pacific between Deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell and Anthony Albanese yesterday. The problem with that is gave the impression that the United States and Australia were carving up the Pacific in terms of their strategic interests. How much damage did that conversation do?

MARLES: I think way too much is being made of that. I mean, I make two points. Firstly, at the Pacific Islands Forum, we announced the $400 million program in relation to policing in the Pacific. You know, I know first-hand in the engagement that I have with the Pacific how law and order is a real issue for many countries in the Pacific and this is going to greatly enhance the capacity of countries in the Pacific, and it's a really constructive contribution we can make. So it is, of itself, a great announcement. I mean, since I was– 

FERGUSON: Notwithstanding, Kurt Campbell said to Anthony Albanese that he was allowing Australia, on the instructions of Kevin Rudd, to have its lane. What can that mean other than you have your strategic interests, we have ours?

MARLES: Way too much is being made of two people having that conversation. America is making and we’ll continue to urge America to do more in the Pacific. And we are really pleased with the efforts of the Biden administration in terms of what they've done in the Pacific. So I mean, what you've got here is Australia, we've always been engaged with the Pacific, we are ourselves doing more and placing it very much front and centre in our worldview, which is really, really important. But we're working more closely with other countries, including the United States, to see them make their contribution in the Pacific and that is a good thing.

FERGUSON: Richard Marles, thank you for joining us on this day and from Java, in Indonesia 

MARLES: Thanks, Sarah. 

ENDS