Television interview, ABC Insiders

SUBJECTS: Middle East conflict; Assisted departure flights for Australians in Lebanon; October 7 anniversary; Iranian ambassador to Australia; China; Security in the Indo-Pacific. 

DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Richard Marles, welcome to the program.

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Morning, David.

SPEERS: So, can you just clear this up for us, is the US President right? Do you agree with Joe Biden that Israel has a right to respond to Iran?

MARLES: Yes. And actually, I think Niki Savva in her last contribution really spoke to exactly what the position of the Government is. I mean, we've talked about the fact that Israel clearly has a right to defend itself, and that does include a right to respond. But the manner in which it defends itself obviously matters. And we really have been in lockstep with the United States over the last few weeks in respect of all of this. I mean, when we've talked about a ceasefire that has been echoing the call that the United States made along with other members of the international community, to which we added our voice. And from the get-go, I mean, since October 7 last year, we've made it completely clear that Israel has a right to defend itself. Israel was attacked on October 7. Hezbollah had a whole lot of choices, but it chose in the aftermath of October 7 to also attack Israel, along with Hamas. Iran has been attacking Israel. Israel has a right to defend itself in the face of all of that. The manner in which it defends itself clearly matters. But what's also true, David, is that what we've seen is a cycle of violence here. No one wants to see this escalate into a broader conflict, into a regional war. A lot of the effort that the United States has been leading with the international community has been to try and avoid a wider conflict, a regional war. And the ceasefire which it called for a week or two ago, was about trying to give both sides an opportunity to break that cycle of violence, to allow UN security resolutions to have effect, which would provide for diplomatic measures to allow those who live near the Israeli-Lebanese border to return with security. Now, we added our voice to that, to the call of the United States, and so we are on exactly the same page as the US.

SPEERS: And does that extend to suggesting Israel should not hit Iran's nuclear facilities or oil facilities? Is that the same position you take?

MARLES: Well, I mean, we haven't gone into the specifics of it, but the manner in which they respond clearly matters and we certainly take note of what America has said in relation to their engagement with Israel. We're obviously not in the same circumstance of America in terms of having that level of engagement with Israel, but you know, to make clear that how Israel defends itself, how it responds, clearly matters. And we've made that clear from the outset as well. But I'd want to make this point, David, I think the reason, in a sense, we're having this conversation, the reason that you're kind of forced into interrogating differences of words between respond and defend is because what we've seen on the part of the Opposition Leader is an attempt to create division in this moment. Now he's out there saying that we're at odds with our allies. That is a patent lie and it's an intentional lie and it's a lie intended to create division within Australian politics and from there within Australian society. And really, you know, we've seen a consistent pattern from Peter Dutton over the course of the last 12 months in respect of this, which frankly has surprised me. I mean, I get oppositions are– the business of opposition is to oppose. I spent nine years in opposition, so I understand the difficulty of what it is to be in opposition. But you would imagine that there are some matters which are not on the table, which are above politics. This is a tragedy that has been playing out in the Middle East. It is obviously difficult. It is obviously complex. The position of the Government has been clear. And what we have seen is Peter Dutton seeking to exploit this moment to create division in Australian society and that should be condemned.

SPEERS: I'll come back to some of those points of political division, but can you tell us the latest on the evacuation of Australians from Lebanon? More than 400 have left, I think, over the past week. We were talking, though, about how difficult the security situation is there to get to the airport for many of those Australians. Is there anything you can do about that, or is this just the reality of the situation?

MARLES: Well, it is the reality of the situation. The suburb in Beirut where there is a Hezbollah presence is not far from the airport and so we have seen strikes near the airport but thankfully, at this moment the airport remains open. You're right that in the last 24 hours we've had a couple of flights leave Beirut for Cyprus, on which we've been able to assist more than 400, largely Australian citizens, but under our guise, to leave Beirut. That takes to a total of more than 450 over the course of the last week. There's a couple more flights leaving Beirut today, Lebanon time, and we will be hoping to see more Australians on those flights as well. And then we've got arrangements with Qatar Airways and Qantas to fly those Australians from Cyprus back to Australia. Again, our message, which we've been repeating for some time now is this is the time to leave. The airport remains open, which is a blessing. It's really important that people take the opportunity to leave. We've got about 3,600 Australians who have now registered with our embassy in Beirut, expressing a desire to have some form of assisted departure and we will continue to work with them and to provide those opportunities to leave, but people simply have to take those opportunities as they are provided.

SPEERS: Would you call on Israel to pause its pursuit of Hezbollah for 24 hours so people can travel in safety to the airport?

MARLES: Well, I mean, again, we end up down the path that we're speaking about earlier. I mean, we've made our positions clear. Look, we're very focused on the Australians who are in Lebanon. As you've been articulating, there is a very significant Australian population in Lebanon.

SPEERS: Just to this point, though. Should Israel be attacking Hezbollah targets in Lebanon or not?

MARLES: Well, we've made clear that Israel has a right to defend itself. So, we're back on the territory that we were before and we have made that clear. We would like to–

SPEERS: I guess what I'm asking is what that means for those trying to get out of Lebanon. What does it mean in practice? Do you think Israel should stop?

MARLES: Well, again, we've expressed our view here. In practice, the situation in Lebanon is very difficult, which is why we have been very clear for months now that now is the time to leave. And now, literally, is the time to leave. I mean, we are providing for flights. There will be two more today. It matters that people take the seats that are available to them. I mean, you've been pointing out that there have been seats that we have provided which have not been taken up during the course of the last week. It was better yesterday in terms of 400 odd, taking the opportunity to leave. We will continue to do what we can to provide assisted departure for Australians in Lebanon. But all of this is obviously taking place in an extremely difficult situation. And we have, you know, we've got other preparations in plan, we do have a couple of C-130 Hercules aircraft which are in Cyprus right now. There is a C-17 Royal Australian Air Force plane which is on the ground in Cyprus right now, and it will be relocating elsewhere within the region. We've got Defence Force personnel on the ground in Cyprus. So, there's a lot of planning, a lot of operations which are going on to try and assist in this moment, but people need to take the opportunities which are being provided to them.

SPEERS: I'm keen for your thoughts at this sort of 12 month anniversary of the October 7 attacks. Two perspectives, obviously, on what's been happening. Israel's view is that we're subjected to this brutal Hamas attack. It's been copping rocket fire from Hezbollah for the last 12 months. And yes, it's weakened both of these terrorist organisations, but it clearly sees now is an opportunity to create more security for itself and its citizens. Do you accept that sentiment, that view from Israel as to why it's doing what it's doing?

MARLES: Well, I mean, as we approach the 12 month anniversary, I think the starting point is to acknowledge what occurred on October 7 last year and that is that Israel was attacked. More than 1,000 innocent lives were lost in a country with a population of less than 10 million. This was a brutal attack by Hamas, a terrorist organisation and on the 12 month anniversary of that, all of us, I think, see this as a very solemn occasion in which to remember these appalling events. More than 200 people were taken hostage, a number of whom remain hostages to this day. This is an appalling set of circumstances. And from the outset we made clear, as I said earlier, Israel's right to defend itself. And we've also made clear over the course of the last 12 months, David, that how it defends itself will be judged. How it defends itself matters. And we–

SPEERS: And that's what I'm trying to get to as well because the other perspective here is, you know, over these last 12 months we've seen more than 40,000 people die in Gaza, according to the Gazan health authorities. Now more than 2,000 people die in Lebanon according to the health authorities there. When you say Israel has a right to defend itself, is that the sort of defence that's justified?

MARLES: Well, I think as we have seen tens of thousands of innocent lives lost in Gaza and indeed innocent lives lost in Lebanon, we are of course horrified by that. I am horrified by that. The Government is, I think Australians are and the world is. That's what we mean by the fact that how Israel defends itself matters, how it defends itself will be judged. And to see that–

SPEERS: And how do you judge it? How do you judge it at this 12 month mark?

MARLES: I think that loss of life is unacceptable. It's totally unacceptable. And that's why, you know, we have over the course of the last 12 months used our voice to advocate along with others in the international community for an end to these hostilities, to allow humanitarian efforts to take place, to support those. I mean what we've seen in the Middle East is an absolute catastrophe.

SPEERS: Has Israel acted in accordance with the rules of war?

MARLES: We are deeply anxious and concerned about the activities that have ensued in the course of the last 12 months which have seen such an extraordinary loss of innocent life in Gaza. And we are now seeing that loss of life in Lebanon. And that is why we describe this as a cycle of violence, because that is clearly what is going on here. That why we have used our voice–

SPEERS: Has it been within the rules of war, though?

MARLES: Well, all of that will ultimately be judged when the facts come out. But what matters is that we have been using our voice, David, to be calling for an end to these hostilities. And we have been doing that now for months. And we've been doing that in line with other countries around the world, like-minded countries who similarly have looked on with a sense of horror at the loss of life which has ensued in Gaza.

SPEERS: The Foreign Minister has called for a timeline to be set for recognising a Palestinian state. Do you agree with Penny Wong on that? What sort of timeline do you have in mind?

MARLES: Well, I definitely agree with the Foreign Minister. I mean, clearly everything that is occurring is happening in a context. And, you know, we have long supported, indeed, it's been the bipartisan position in this country for decades, supporting a two-state solution. And I think one of the– what comes from all that has played out in the last 12 months is the need to see a credible pathway forward which sees the achievement of that, of the Palestinian state, the achievement of a two-state solution, and having a clear timeline is part of that.

SPEERS: Could that happen without Israel's support? Would you want to see a Palestinian state recognised without Israel's support?

MARLES: Well, I think what we want to see is a negotiated peace. And I mean, the point there – and it's ultimately, in part, why a two-state solution can be the only solution – no matter what plays out, there are two peoples who will continue to live side by side in this part of the world– 

SPEERS: Sure. But this is important, when you say a negotiated peace are you saying it has to be negotiated with Israel? 

MARLES: What there needs to be, what there has to be now is a credible pathway forward for the achievement of the Palestinian aspiration of its own state. That's what there needs to be. And the point I would make is that whichever way you look at it, these two peoples will be living side by side. And the only enduring way in which that will happen, which will provide security for both of those peoples, is if that occurs in a context of peace. Now, I get that that seems very unattainable at this moment. That seems very far off, to kind of almost talk about that may seem trite, and yet that is the only goal, the only way in which we will have an enduring peace in the region, which will provide for the security of all those who live in the Middle East. And it's why, in part, why we have called for a two-state solution and continue to do so.

SPEERS: The Government's defended allowing Iran's ambassador to stay in Australia. We know the Opposition thinks he should go. Is the reason here that because America doesn't have diplomatic ties with Iran, Australia's diplomatic relationship is a back channel for the US?

MARLES: Oh, look, I wouldn't comment on that. I mean, this is about Australia's national interest. So, again, to just be clear about what's happened, the tweets of the Iranian ambassador are utterly unacceptable. Tweeting in support of Hezbollah, a registered terrorist organisation, is utterly unacceptable. The Iranian ambassador was called in on Friday. This position was made very clear to him, as it was to the Iranian government, by our representatives in Tehran. Now, we maintain diplomatic relations with a whole lot of countries and a whole lot of countries with whom we have great differences. We have diplomatic representation at this moment with Russia. And precisely because we're seeing increasing tensions in the region means that the ability to have a direct means of communication actually is really significant for Australia's national interest. And that's why we will maintain that in place. That doesn't equal any acceptance of what Iran is saying. Indeed, we have been condemning Iran for a whole lot of its behaviours for a very long period of time. We condemn Iran for its attacks on Israel in the last few days. And we certainly condemn the Iranian ambassador for the tweets that he put out.

SPEERS: And just on the protests. Are you opposed to the protest happening today as well as the events tomorrow– 

MARLES: Yes.

SPEERS: Or are you more relaxed about the protests today?

MARLES: No, I think the protests that are happening over the course of today and tomorrow are deeply regrettable. You know, the anniversary of October 7 needs to be about October 7. And what happened on that day was the loss of more than 1,000 innocent lives. People going about their normal daily business in a peaceful way, young people attending a concert, people being taken hostage, a whole lot of whom remain hostages to this day. It is a very solemn occasion. That's what– it is the anniversary of that that we will be remembering today and tomorrow. And I think protests in support of Palestine on these days are very regrettable.

SPEERS: Just finally, while I've got you there, Defence Minister. The world, of course, has been watching the Middle East. And while all of this has been going on, China last week test fired an intercontinental ballistic missile with a dummy warhead in the Pacific. First time they've done this in decades. Why do you think China decided to test fire an ICBM right now?

MARLES: Well, it's a good question and it's certainly a matter that we're very concerned about. Of course, this week I've been in Auckland at a meeting of South Pacific defence ministers and in many ways, that meeting happened in the shadow of that ICBM test. It traversed the whole lot of exclusive economic zones, the airspace of a number of Pacific nations. And you can be assured that this was a topic of significant conversation amongst us as defence ministers during the course of the week. I think what it demonstrates is that in our immediate region we face significant strategic contests and that contest goes very much to our national security and the Pacific remains a deep focus of our strategic interest and our diplomatic effort.

SPEERS: The Prime Minister, as I understand, is set to meet China's Premier Li on the sidelines of the ASEAN summit in Laos later this week. Should he raise this ICBM test with him and get some answers?

MARLES: Well, I'm not going to speak for the Prime Minister in terms of his meeting, but I would make clear that we have, in the aftermath of this test, sought an explanation from China about what this test was about. We don't have clarity as to why China did this. Anything which destabilises peace and security in our region is obviously something which is of enormous concern to Australia as it is to the countries of the Pacific.

SPEERS: Richard Marles, thanks for joining us this morning.

MARLES: Thanks, David.