Interview, ABC Radio National

SUBJECTS: Australian Government Support for Ukraine, Donald Trump; PNG NRL team

KARVELAS: You're listening to ABC Radio National Breakfast, Thursday morning, and 24 minutes to eight, Australian tanks will be sent to the battlefields of Ukraine in the federal government's latest show of support for Kyiv's fight against Russia. The 50 Abrams tanks are due to retire, and the Albanese government had initially suggested a donation wasn't on the cards. But after lobbying from Ukraine, they've now agreed. Pat Conroy is the Minister for Defence Industry and Capability Delivery. He's in Brussels ahead of this week's NATO defence meeting and will meet with his Ukrainian counterpart. He joins us this morning. Pat Conroy, welcome.

CONROY: Morning, PK.

KARVELAS: You'd originally said “no”. What changed your mind?

CONROY: Well, we've been working through a process. There's checks and balances around the allocation and disposal of this equipment, so we had to work through that. At the same time as we're going through that process, we were also providing additional packages to support Ukraine. In July this year, the Deputy Prime Minister announced $250 million in military assistance. And in April of this year, we announced a separate $100 million of assistance. So, we're really privileged to be the largest non-NATO contributor of military assistance. And the 49 very capable M1A1 Abrams tanks will help support the people of Ukraine in their valiant struggle to end the war on their terms, and it will help maintain pressure on Russia. So, this was an important announcement, but one in a series of announcements of support for Ukraine.

KARVELAS: Yeah, I still don't feel like I get what changed. You say there's been discussions, but Australia was pretty lukewarm on it. What changed?

CONROY: Well, we were talking with Ukraine, the Ukrainian government, about their priorities, and they made clear this is one of their priorities. But other priorities they requested with support for air-defence missiles, air-to-ground weapons, anti-tank weapons and drones. And they were the subject of earlier packages announced in July and April this year. This process took a bit longer. Another important factor was the delivery of our new M1A2 tanks beginning in the middle of this year that freed up these tanks to be released to Ukraine. So, this is part of a broader process and there are other checks and balances, including support from the United States for the transfer of this equipment. So, this did take some time, but at the same time we were providing hundreds of millions of dollars of other military support for the people of Ukraine. And the Ukrainian government's been very positive in their response. They've welcomed this and they've said that this will definitely assist them on the battlefield.

KARVELAS: These tanks were due to retire. Some need repair work before they're delivered. Are they safe for use and when will they be on the battlefield?

CONROY: Well, on your second question, we won't disclose when they will be delivered for two reasons. One is operational security. We never disclose when we deliver material to Ukraine. The second one is we're talking to Ukraine about how they want them delivered. In what nature? Some of these tanks will require some modifications to be fixed for battlefield and we're talking to Ukraine about whether they would like us to do them in conjunction with other countries or they'd like to do them in theatre. They're the sorts of factors that will drive the timing of it. But this is a very significant contribution of 49 very advanced and capable main battle tanks to support the Ukrainian military's armoured brigades – and this complements the other work we've done which brings the total military assistance to $1.3 billion since the conflict began.

KARVELAS: Are you looking at further weapons transfers to Ukraine now or are we getting to the end of what Australia is able to contribute?

CONROY: We're in constant contact with the Ukrainian government and we're responding to what their priorities are and we'll keep talking to them. Some of the assistance we provided is release of Australian defence materiel like the some Bushmasters and the M1 Abrams and artillery pieces. Others is purchasing equipment from the Australian defence industry, including some very advanced drones. And others is making contributions to Ukrainian funds, the International Fund for Ukraine, which purchases weapons on behalf of the Ukrainian government. So, we'll keep talking to them about what's there. And we made it very clear that we're unwavering in our support for the people of Ukraine in the face of Russia's unprovoked and illegal war. And we've made it very clear that we'll be supporting Ukraine as long as it takes for them to end the war on their terms and to maintain pressure on Russia to reverse course.

KARVELAS: If you're just tuning in, this is Radio National Breakfast. The Minister for Defence Industry and Capability Delivery, Pat Conroy, is my guest. It's been more than two and a half years since Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine's president, Vladimir Zelenskyy, will present his victory plan to EU leaders later this week. Do you really believe it's still possible for Ukraine to have a victory?

CONROY: Absolutely. I do believe that that will be dependent upon not just the actions of Ukraine, but on the actions of countries supporting their valued efforts. I look forward to conversations with my counterparts at NATO and other Indo-Pacific countries over the next two days. And part of that will be how we can support the valiant people of Ukraine in their struggle even more. Also, it relies on putting pressure on countries that are supporting Vladimir Putin in his illegal invasion, including North Korea, who continues to illegally supply ballistic missiles in breach of UN sanctions, to Putin's illegal invasion. So, there's a number of factors, but I do firmly believe that Ukraine can end this war on its terms and we support that.

KARVELAS: Ok. There is an election in the United States. The two candidates seem to have pretty different ideas about that future. What risk does the Trump presidency pose for a victory for Ukraine?

CONROY: I think that question is a question better placed to Mister Trump and his campaign about what position.

KARVELAS: So, I'll ask what the Australian government position is.

CONROY: Our position is the choice of who will be the president of the United States is a decision for the American people. Both candidates have made statements in support for Ukraine and their efforts to resist Vladimir Putin, they've done it in their own styles.

KARVELAS: That's not true. No, no. I need to fact check you, because I've heard Donald Trump's language really closely. I watch it very closely. And in fact, when asked directly in the debate about whether he wants Ukraine to win, he didn't answer it.

CONROY: Well. I've also heard other comments where he's reaffirmed support for Ukraine. So, again, I'm not in the business of passing every comment from US presidential candidates, but I can say that both candidates have expressed support for the Ukrainian struggle and importantly, the strong support in the US Houses of Congress for continuing resistance by Ukraine. You just have to look at the support packages that have been going through, not just through a presidential fiat, but through legislation through the US Houses of Congress.

KARVELAS: Yeah, at the moment. But are you worried that that may end?

CONROY: At the moment there's a Republican majority in the House of Representatives, so I think that's an important factor there. So, I think that we'll just see what comes out of November, but you referred to statements, I've referred to statements from those particular campaigns. I'm responsible with the Deputy Prime Minister and the broader Albanese Labor government for what we're doing. And as I said, we're the biggest non-NATO contributor of military assistance to Ukraine. That includes the latest instalment today. That is a very powerful signal of support for the people of Ukraine and that's what we're really focused on.

KARVELAS: Minister, if I can just change the direction a little. You're also the Minister for the Pacific. Australia has offered $600 million to support PNG's bid for an NRL team. I want to clarify something here. In return for this NRL deal, has PNG offered to not sign any security deals with China?

CONROY: Well, it's important to state that we haven't finalised negotiations, so commenting on any particular dollar figure or parts of agreements that may or may not be there is not responsible by me. But what I can say to you is that we are negotiating to support the entry of a PNG NRL side. Nothing will bring the people of the two countries closer together and I'd refer you to comments that Prime Minister Merape has made over the last couple of years that PNG will be relying on its traditional security partners, particularly Australia, to support their security agenda. And that's something that we're enormously privileged to hear and we'll continue to support them in their security needs. We announced more than $200 million bilateral security agreement implementation package when the BSA was signed and we're really privileged to be their traditional security partner and we hope to continue to be that.

KARVELAS. So, what assurances have you asked PNG to give?

CONROY: Well, as a matter of principle, I don't discuss what negotiations I undertake with foreign governments. That's not how this government operates. What I can say to you is that we are their security partner of choice. They've made it very clear publicly and we continue to try and build strategic trust with all Pacific nations, but particularly PNG – that's only four kilometres from Australia. And to repair the damage done to our standing in the Pacific that was occurred under the last Liberal government, particularly by people like Peter Dutton, who made jokes about climate change and left a vacuum that other countries have been trying to fill in the region. And our Pacific policies have been very comprehensive from the Falepili treaty with Tuvalu to the BSA with Papua New Guinea to the Pacific engagement visa and more. You continue to use every tool of statecraft to make Australia the partner of choice for the Pacific, including Papua New Guinea.

KARVELAS: Pat Conroy, we're out of time. Thank you so much for joining us.

CONROY: Thanks, PK. Have a good morning.

KARVELAS: You too. The Minister for Defence Industry and Capability Delivery, Pat Conroy there.  

ENDS