Television interview, ABC Afternoon Briefing

SUBJECTS: Albanese Government Support for Ukraine, UK training of Ukrainian forces.

GREG JENNETT: Well we've already seen the reason for Defence, Industry and Pacific Minister Pat Conroy being in Europe at the moment. He's representing Australia at NATO Defence Minister talks, and Minister Conroy is standing by to join us live from NATO headquarters in Brussels. Pat Conroy, good to see you from continental Europe. Welcome back to the programme. Of course, NATO, very attentive to the war in Ukraine at present as always, we've got the 49 retiring M1 Abrams tanks that Australia's now pledged to Ukraine. I wonder if you can add some additional detail here, Pat, in supplying them, does Australia place any conditions on where those tanks may be used? Can they freely cross into Russia's recognised borders, if Ukrainian commanders choose to do so?

MINISTER FOR DEFENCE INDUSTRY PAT CONROY: Thanks, Greg, for having me, and it's a privilege to be here at the NATO headquarters in Brussels. Australia stands steadfast in its support for the people and government of Ukraine in their fight against Russian aggression and the illegal invasion and the gifting of the 49 very capable M1A1 Abrams tanks is the latest instalment in that support. To your direct question, Greg, we place no conditions on our provision of defence materiel. Our long-standing principle is, as long as they are used according to the international rules of war, there are no other conditions. So, the scenario that you painted is consistent with our gifting. That applied to our Bushmasters. That applies to the missiles, the drones, the other materiel we provided.

GREG JENNETT: Thanks for clearing that up. And it's been stated by your colleagues that, understandably some work needs to be done to them before shipment processes can be completed. Do they contain depleted uranium in their armour? And if so, will that need to be removed or replaced, as I think had to happen with US-donated Abrams tanks?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, I'm not going to go into the detail of what will be pulled on, off the tanks or added to the tanks for operational security reasons. All I can say is we are working very closely with our US allies on the donation of these tanks. Ultimately needed agreement from the US given these tanks are provided under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations, ITARs, and I think it's reasonable to say that the US and us are working towards similar support that Ukraine received for the gifting of the 31 Abrams tanks from the United States. But I won't go into details for operational security reasons.

GREG JENNETT: Ok, I think I understand the implications of that answer. Thank you. Providing munitions to go with them. Is Australia doing that or will the Ukrainians have to source that from the US or elsewhere?

MINISTER CONROY: At this stage, the announcement is the gifting of the tanks in themselves. We started discussions with the Ukrainian government about the timing of the delivery, how would they want the tanks provided, whether they'll do the modifications they need, what will be done in other places. So, that's really driving it. Now, they've got an existing logistics base to support M1 Abrams tanks due to the 31 gifted from the United States. So, I imagine that would be where they would look for support. Importantly, this is one part of the $1.3 billion of military assistance we've provided to Ukraine since the conflict began. We're privileged to be the largest non-NATO provider of military aid. And this year alone we've announced about $650 million worth of military assistance, from drones to missile defence to more ammunition, and this is the latest instalment on that.

GREG JENNETT: Yeah, it's adding up now, isn't it? Look, you are there, Pat Conroy at the Defence Minister talks at NATO HQ. President Zelenskyy's new so-called victory plan has been presented in different parts, classified and otherwise. Have you or will you be briefed on parts that are nothing yet in the public domain?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, I'm always careful to not foreshadow or canvas what I'll discuss with foreign leaders. But I am meeting with the Ukrainian Defence Minister tomorrow, and I expect we'll be going into detail about how Australia can support their efforts to end the war on their terms. I think three quick points. We stand steadfast in support of Ukraine. Secondly, we're working with like-minded countries and partners to support Ukraine's efforts to end the war on their terms and deter Russian aggression, and to reinforce the point that we need to work together to deal with a very challenging geostrategic environment where coercion is increasing and we need an urgent work to protect the global rules-based order. So, I'm looking forward to catching up with my Ukrainian counterpart tomorrow to discuss how we can support their efforts and what their plans are to end the war on their terms and to deter the aggression and the illegal and unprovoked invasion of their territory by Vladimir Putin.

GREG JENNETT: Ok. So, on their terms, Minister, in public remarks that we can all try and make sense of, President Zelenskyy has said, quote, “If the plan”, that's his victory plan “is supported, we can end the war no later than next year”, unquote. So, if I was trying to interpret that or even take it literally, that could mean in either about ten weeks from now or in about a year and ten weeks from now. Do either of those seem achievable to you? Is that your reckoning?

MINISTER CONROY: Well, again, we have to be careful. One, I'm not the commander of the Ukrainian military, so I don't have his strategic picture nor am I a professional soldier who are best suited to understand these challenges. All I can say is that the people and the armed forces of Ukraine have put up a valiant resistance to the Russian aggression from a country many orders of magnitude larger than them and the free world so to speak. The partners have mobilised massive resources to support them. We had another announcement of another package from the United States overnight, and we're going to be using every resource we can. We're going to be moving very fast to support the Ukrainian efforts and if they think that's practical then we're going to be working very hard to get the resources they need to end the war on their terms because importantly this is not just about supporting Ukraine, this is about the signal it sends to the rest of the world. We're seeing countries like North Korea illegally providing ballistic missiles to Ukraine. We've seen countries like Iran supporting Russia in here. We've been urging China to use its friendship with Russia to end the war, and it's important that we continue to support Ukraine for the signal it sends to the rest of the world. What happens in Europe affects us in the Indo-Pacific, and what happens in Indo Pacific affects those in Europe. Everything is linked nowadays, and we need to protect the rules-based global order and deter coercion and aggression.

GREG JENNETT: Of course. Can I just explore an element of Australia's contribution still related to Ukraine but actually to the last leg of your travels, Pat, which took you to London. The UK government is contemplating providing some of its military training to Ukrainian forces in-country. Would Australia be prepared to assist in-country, that is in Ukraine, as an extension of the existing Operation Kudu joint training programme if the Starmer government proceeds down that path?

MINISTER CONROY: I had a very good meeting with UK Secretary of State for Defence, John Healey, yesterday where we talked about support for Ukraine and as you said in your question Greg, we are really proud to be part of Operation Kudu where Australian Defence Force personnel have trained nearly 3000 Ukrainian military personnel, and Richard Marles and Penny Wong have witnessed the training and have talked about how it moved them personally to see the risks that Ukrainian civilians are taking and working to train up as soldiers. In terms of where the UK government's looking at taking Operation Kudu, we'll keep those discussions confidential. You can understand from an operational security point of view it wouldn't be appropriate for me to advertise publicly our discussions with the UK government. But what I can say – 

GREG JENNETT: No, but do you have an in-principle view --

MINISTER CONROY: -- partner with them.

GREG JENNETT: Yeah. Do you have an in-principle view on training in Ukraine?

MINISTER CONROY: Look, Greg, it's not appropriate for me to get into that in the full public spotlight. What I can say is we'll continue to work with UK on this area. We're part of the Drone Coalition also led by the United Kingdom and I look forward to talking with Secretary of State Healy over the NATO summit and getting an understanding of their further plans there. But I was briefed by both him and his defence officials about the massive resources they've been plugging into Ukraine to support the valiant resistance of the Ukrainian people.

GREG JENNETT: All right, you've got a full agenda there. Much more we could talk about, but I think I'm going to have to park it. Pat Conroy, you've got much to do on your Thursday there. We'll wrap it up and pick up on the remaining threads when you return to our country. Thanks for finding some time for Afternoon Briefing.

MINISTER CONROY: Thanks, Greg. Have a great afternoon.

ENDS