Television Interview, ABC Afternoon Briefing

SUBJECTS: Visit to Singapore; Australia-Singapore Defence Cooperation; Sun Cable; Taiwan; US Submarine Industrial Base; AUKUS; Trump Administration; Australia-Indonesia Relationship.

GREG JENNETT, HOST: Richard Marles, always good to catch up with you, even better when you can manage to make it work from afar. So thanks for chiming in from Singapore. You're there with Penny Wong and Don Farrell for annual talks with Prime Minister Wong, among others. Now on the defence front, what extra cooperation are you seeking on top of what Australia already does with Singapore?

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Greg. It is our annual 3+3 meeting, which is the main mechanism for our bilateral relationship with Singapore. And as we lead into next year – which is the 60th anniversary of diplomatic relations, it’s the 10th anniversary of our comprehensive strategic partnership – we're looking at updating that. And that's across the whole field of our relationship but, as you say, defence is a really significant part of that. I mean, right now we have the Singaporean Air Force doing their fast jet training at RAAF Base Pearce in Perth, that's been going on for 30 years now. That means every fast jet pilot in the Singapore Air Force has done some of their training in Australia. And their armoured corps and some of their infantry do what's called Exercise Wallaby at Shoalwater Bay, north of Rockhampton, every year. That's a major exercise for Singapore, and we do a bilateral exercise with them. So it's actually one of the deepest defence relationships that we have. And in reverse, we also have a significant tempo of activity here in Singapore, both with the Air Force and the Navy. We're really looking at how we can expand all of that. We see it as a really important relationship with a very trusted friend in Southeast Asia where we have deep history, where there's real geographic significance for both countries and as I say, there's a high level of strategic trust. So we feel very optimistic about today's meeting, but also looking forward to next year and the update of the CSP. 

JENNETT: All right, can I take you away from defence to other aspects of the relationship with Singapore. The Sun Cable project that would create huge solar generation in the Barkly Region of the Northern Territory, feeding it potentially to Indonesia and Singapore via subsea cable. This has come up short on commercial investment, but there is regulatory progress being made at the Singaporean end. Is the Australian Government open to providing funding or other forms of assistance to Sun Cable to make this happen? 

MARLES: Well, this is a ground-breaking project. It has received regulatory approval in terms of the solar farm in Australia, but as you said, here in Singapore they’ve provided the necessary regulatory approval for the import of energy, which is the unique nature of this project. Obviously we have a range of programs in place now to facilitate investment in renewable energy projects. But obviously we're working very closely with the Singaporean government, the proponents of Sun Cable, to see whether this can be made to work. I mean, if it can, it really would be a significant step forward in the ability for us to effectively export our renewable energy. We talk about being a renewable energy superpower, one of the key parts to that is our solar resource. And one of the difficulties, obviously, in that, is being able to export the energy. This is a very concrete proposal around how we might do that, and I think it would be great for both countries if it can be made to happen.

JENNETT: So public funding? Because you do have so much hanging on this concept of a renewable energy superpower, would that, or should that, be matched by a public investment?

MARLES: Well, again, we've got a range of programs around encouraging and facilitating private investment in the renewable sector. That's where our focus is at. You know, there is a significant interest within the private sector in renewable energy generally, but in trying to make this happen specifically. I think that at the moment, the challenge is around the technology, and trying to see whether the technology can be developed to a point where an undersea cable, which is direct current, high voltage of this length, can be made to work. That's where this is at. But the important point here is that, from a regulatory point of view, both countries now have done what they need to do to enable this to happen. So the support is there and obviously, as I said, with both countries we will work with the proponent to see whether this can happen. 

JENNETT: Alright, I might take you to some regional matters that may or may not come up in your discussions today, Richard Marles. Taiwan's President Lai is traveling through the Pacific this week; Hawaii, Guam, Palau, Marshall Islands. This is drawing protests, predictably, from Beijing, and will presumably prompt some sort of military show of force too. Does Australia defend President Lai’s international diplomacy or conversely, see it as needlessly provocative? 

MARLES: Well, ultimately, Greg, our position remains as it has been for a long time and that is that we don't want to see any unilateral changes to the status quo across the Taiwan Straits. You know, our focus is on doing everything we can in terms of exercising our international voice around promoting stability and peace in and around the Taiwan Straits, in and around Taiwan. Now, ultimately, the President of Taiwan's travel is a matter for him, and his visiting Hawaii is a matter between him and the United States. But what we're interested in is ensuring that we can add our voice to the international call to keep the temperature down and to maintain the status quo across the Taiwan Strait.

JENNETT: So does keeping the temperature down, is that aided by this travel?

MARLES: Well, again, I'm not going to comment specifically on President Lai’s travel. What our focus is, is on making sure that we can keep tensions at a minimum. Obviously, this is something that has been a focus for a long time, and we want to see that the status quo as it exists across the Taiwan Strait is maintained, and that there is no unilateral change to that. Ultimately, President Lai’s travel is a matter for him and the countries which he visits. But what we need to be doing is ensuring that we are doing everything we can to encourage tensions to remain in the minimum.

JENNETT: I think this was the Australian Government position a couple of years ago when Nancy Pelosi, who was then the Speaker of the US House, made her celebrated visit to Taipei. You might have noticed from afar that your colleague, Raff Ciccone, has applauded that trip and kind of endorsed the idea, to use his words, that it sent the Chinese berserk in response. Is that the Australian Government's view on her travel and the worth of it? Was it valuable that it sent the Chinese berserk? 

MARLES: Well, the position of the Australian Government, as I've just articulated, we want to be using our voice to encourage all the parties to make sure that tensions are kept at a minimum, that we do not see unilateral changes to the status quo across Taiwan Strait. That requires care and our voice, in terms of how we exercise it as an Australian Government, is going to be also exercised with care. Because there's a lot at stake here and it does matter that we are doing everything we can to be part of that international voice, which is very much felt, I might say, within Southeast Asia and other parts of the world, around doing everything we can to reduce tensions across the Taiwan Strait and to–

JENNETT: Is Raff Ciccone mindful of that? Sorry to interrupt, we're talking over each other a bit there. Is he mindful of that duty of care?

MARLES: Well, again, Senator Ciccone can speak for himself, and I know that Raff will. But from the point of view of the Australian Government, our voice is being used in the way that I've described. We want to be a voice for calm and a voice for reducing tensions. And in exercising our voice in that way, I might say, we are acting entirely consistently with the other countries in the region. Because we understand there is a lot at stake here, and it is really important that we are all doing everything we can to create the environment as much as possible, which sees that there isn't any unilateral alteration to the status quo, and that tensions are kept at a minimum. 

JENNETT: All right. Can I take you to a defence matter, one that concerns the US? I'm not sure you've had much of a comment to make, Richard, since news emerged last week of the request by the White House for an extra $8 billion Australian to lift production of Virginia class submarines. What has the Government learnt for the reasons behind this request? Does it mean that attempts thus far to lift the production rate aren't working, even with Australia's $4.6 billion payment? 

MARLES: Well, look we’re encouraged by what the White House has done. From the outset, from the moment that we announced the Optimal Pathway back in March of last year, we understood the pressures that the industrial base in the United States was under in terms of both the production rate of new Virginia class submarines, but also the sustainment rate of existing Virginias. But ultimately put together, the ability to get more Virginias into the water. We knew that. We knew that coming into signing the agreement in respect of the Optimal Pathway and that the trick here was going to be doing everything we could to make our own contribution to the American industrial base so that rate of production could be increased, such that we are then able to receive the Virginias, the first of them, of course, being one that has already had some service, in the early 2030s. Now we are encouraged by the steps that have been taken in the United States since March of last year. I see this step in the last week as being another example of that. And we are confident that what this does is put both the production rate of new Virginias and the sustainment rate at a level where we can feel confident about receiving the Virginias that are part of our program of the United States in the early 2030s and beyond. 

JENNETT: I think that's a statement of satisfaction that you've expressed many times, including on this program. But I do wonder, why would the administration now, we’re more than a year, well over a year, close to two years after San Diego Optimal Pathway announcements. Why would they be categorizing this as an emergency increase if all was on track?

MARLES: Well, I mean, I think you'll see steps taken in the future and this is not the first step that's been taken since March. We understood there was a pressure that was on this industrial base when we reached the agreement with the United States back in March of last year. So it's not news to understand that the US needs to lift its production rate. That was part of the challenge that both countries were facing. But what we can take from the decision of the White House is that they're meeting that challenge. And it’s not the only decision that's been made, there have been a range of steps that have been taken to see an increase in the production rate. We obviously are keeping a close eye on it. We are keeping a close eye on it specifically from the point of view of whether or not we're on a path which will see us be able to receive the first Virginia in the early 2030s, and we are confident about that. But it's going to require the United States, and of course, Australia's contribution as well, for there to be steps like what we've just seen, and more steps in the future. And I'm sure that's what we will see happen, because at the end of the day, it's in the US’ strategic interests to have more Virginias in the water. 

JENNETT: Alright, yeah. Since we last spoke, have you had any opportunity to sound out the incoming Defence Secretary, Pete Hegseth about a meeting at any stage?

MARLES: No. And I mean, we obviously need to allow the processes to play out in the United States, so we're giving the US space in order to do that. There has been, of course, the Prime Minister has spoken with President elect Trump, and so there is engagement with the incoming administration. But they're going through a period of transition at the moment, they're getting their team in place, we've got to give them the room to do that. Of course, when they are in place, we will be engaging very quickly. 

JENNETT: Alright, I understand those processes. Quick final one, it seems like there's a lot of ministers sprayed out across Southeast Asia at the moment. Tony Burke is traveling to Indonesia, in fact, is already in Indonesia for talks, among other things, about the possible transfer of Bali Five prisoners to Australia. What do you understand of the scope of President Prabowo’s in-principle agreement given so far, according to reports anyway?

MARLES: Well, obviously, I'm not going to go into my understandings of where President Prabowo is at, and the Indonesian government is at. It's important that we raise consular matters, and we've raised this specific consular matter repeatedly. But it's also important that those conversations are maintained in the privacy in which they were being undertaken. Tony Burke's visit to Indonesia is principally around greater cooperation in respect of Home Affairs, in Australia and the border agencies in Indonesia, and that's critically important for both countries, actually. But we continue to advocate in this case and people are aware of that, and we'll continue to do that, but it's also important that we maintain a confidentiality around what's said in those meetings. 

JENNETT: All right, do you understand whether he, Tony Burke, is exploring third country resettlement options with Indonesia after the passage of those migration bills last week?

MARLES: Look, I'm not specifically aware of that. I know that we will be– that Tony will be talking to his counterpart in Indonesia, and it is a really important relationship in terms of the border security of Australia, but Indonesia as well. The level of cooperation that we now have with Indonesia, specifically in respect of border security matters, is at an all-time high.  I have been in Indonesia a number of times, but earlier this year I was speaking to then‑defence minister, now President Prabowo, about these matters. And you know, there's a lot that both countries can do for each other in terms of maintaining our respective borders. We share it. We share a very significant border and it makes sense that we would be working closely in respect of that, and we now are. And that is a really good outcome for both countries. 

JENNETT: Alright, we'll await with interest any announcements that come from Tony Burke's travels, as indeed from your own there, Richard Marles. I know you've got a big program ahead today. We thank you not only for coming on today, but being so generous with your time and availability throughout the year. Thanks so much.

MARLES: Well a pleasure, Greg. And I understand this might be your last week in the chair, so thank you for what you've done. I've really enjoyed the various interviews I've had with you this year, and prior to that as well. We're going to miss you in this specific chair, but very best of luck for what the future holds for you, Greg. 

JENNETT: That's very kind. We appreciate it. Go well.