Radio Interview, ABC Perth Drive

SUBJECTS: Middle East Conflict; Collins Class Submarines; AUKUS; Peter Dutton’s Referendum Proposal; CFMEU. 

GARY ADSHEAD, HOST: Richard Marles, Defence Minister, joins us on the line now. Thanks very much for your time.

RICHARD MARLES, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Good afternoon, Gary, how are you?

ADSHEAD: I'll just get your reaction to obviously the broken ceasefire now in Gaza. What's your reaction to how that's playing out right now?

MARLES: Well, obviously there's the unfolding tragedy that we are seeing in Gaza. We all wanted to see the ceasefire supported. That required a return, of course, of all the hostages for the humanitarian assistance to flow. I think what matters from here is that, you know, we are using our voice internationally and being part of an international community which is calling for whatever needs to be put in place to ensure that we have a permanent ceasefire. And clearly the return of hostages is a critical part of that.

ADSHEAD: And is it quite clear from your government's point of view that Hamas has not stuck to that side of the bargain?

MARLES: Well, I mean, the arrangement was for hostages to be returned. I mean, we have expressed from the very outset our deep concern around Hamas. You know, fundamentally we all, the whole world wants to see an end to the unfolding tragedy which has been occurring in the Middle East and in Gaza. And, you know, we will continue to add our voice to that of the rest of the international community in doing all that is necessary to make this ceasefire be permanent.

ADSHEAD: Obviously, the words of Israel's Prime Minister, Israel will from now on act against Hamas with increasing military strength. It doesn't bode well, does it?

MARLES: Well, we've always acknowledged Israel's right to defend itself and we have always made clear that Hamas’ role in this is an organisation which has been perpetrating terror. And so we understand that. Obviously it also matters that all that occurs occurs in accordance with international law. There are innocent Gazans who have been caught up in this as well and who have died in enormous number. And it all forms part of the tragedy which has unfolded in the Middle East and we need to be doing everything we can to see a ceasefire, to return to a situation where there is a ceasefire and that to be supported in a permanent way.

ADSHEAD: Just going to something yesterday that I'm sure you noted and that was a concern around Australia's Collins class submarines in terms of the extension program. Is it in danger in terms of the timeline?

MARLES: No, there is a challenge in relation to the extending of the entire Collins class life and we've been articulating that from the outset. I mean, when we came to government, we faced really a capability gap of a decade or more with there being no prospect of us acquiring a new nuclear‑powered submarine in our Navy until the early 2040s. And of course the Collins, when it was originally built, was anticipated to be coming to the end of its life now. What we've done is through the AUKUS arrangement, seen Australia be able to acquire Virginia class submarines which will be in service not in the early 2040s, but the early 2030s and we are doing everything within our power to then extend the life of Collins through to that point in time and beyond, when you look at the overlap, until we get to a point of operating an entirely nuclear‑powered fleet. There is a real challenge in this. Collins was intended to be coming to the end of its life around now. But we actually believe that we can meet that challenge in this sense, that from this day forward we will have an evolving and increasing a better submarine capability every day than the day before. And I think we can meet that challenge from here through until the day that we are operating a fully nuclear­‑powered submarine fleet. But there are challenges in that. You know, right now the intention is to do a full life of type extension on HMAS Farncomb, which is the first of the Collins class submarines to go through the life of type extension exercise. But as we manage it and all of our submarines through that process, there is– you know, we need to be smart and there is a balance that we need to get right of getting new, upgraded equipment onto these submarines whilst at the same time getting those submarines out the door, as it were, so that they are able to be in operation. And we think we can manage all of that in a way where we do have an evolving capability.

ADSHEAD: And just to give you a right of reply, Andrew Hastie, your shadow, saying that you're secretly scaling back the Collins class LOTE, as they call it, the life of type extension. What do you say to that?

MARLES: Well, that's obviously rubbish. What we're doing is managing in the smartest, most careful way we can, the extension of the life of the entire class of submarines in a way where we have an evolving capability. And when I first was articulating the optimal pathway to us acquiring a nuclear-powered submarine capability, right back in March of 2023, we spoke about it then – 

that really our aim was to extend the life of Collins as part of the suite of measures that we're taking so that we can meet the challenge of having an evolving capability from this day through until we have that full nuclear‑powered submarine fleet. And if we do that, that's where we've avoided a capability gap. But to be clear, you know, what Andrew and his team gave us when we came to power in May of 2022 was a yawning capability gap with no answer to it. With no prospect of acquiring our first submarine, new submarine being in service in our fleet until the early 2040s and really no meaningful prospect of being able to extend the life of Collins through to that point in time. Both through a smart process of extending the life of Collins, through acquiring in-service submarines from the United States Navy, the Virginia class submarines, and through establishing our own production line which will have submarines rolling off it in the early 2040s, through those three measures we can meet this challenge. And that's what we're doing.

ADSHEAD: Just more broadly we're talking obviously in trade tensions in terms of tariffs around the US administration. Are you really absolutely certain, rolled gold guarantee assurances that the AUKUS deal will remain secure during all of this?

MARLES: Well, I mean I'm consistently being asked this question and it's fair enough that I'm asked it and I understand the context of it. I mean there is a three way treaty between our three countries in respect of AUKUS which underpins the optimal pathway that we announced in March of 2023. If you look at all the comments that have been made by those in the Trump Administration, they are supportive of AUKUS; be it Secretary of State Marco Rubio or Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth. If you look beyond what is being said and you look at what is being done, the way in which Democrats, but Republicans and Trump Republicans have been voting in the United States Congress since AUKUS was announced has been to support it. And that included at the end of 2023 when Trump Republicans were supporting measures in the United States Congress which would see the sale of the Virginia submarines to Australia. So, you know, in word and deed, in all that has been said and all that has been done and indeed underpinned by a legal treaty, AUKUS is there. And fundamentally it is there and it is being supported because it's in the interests of the United States as much as it's in the interests of Australia. You know, we've spoken and it's been reported widely that we're making a financial contribution to the US industrial base which will see an increase in the rate of production of United States Virginia class submarines into the US Navy, that's very much in their interest. But today I was at a company called VEEM in Canning Vale. They make precision metal castings for defence purposes. They employ about 200 people here in Perth. We are looking at a company like VEEM, it'll be one of the first companies to be qualified to supply into the United States Virginia class program, so that it will be supporting the building of Virginia class submarines in the United States. That's in America's interest. That will see an increase in the rate of production of Virginia class submarines for the US. That is an outcome of what we're doing with AUKUS, and it's happening right here, right now. And so, you know, it's in America's interest, as it is in our interest, as it's in the UK's interest. And that's why I have confidence that AUKUS is going to be fulfilled.

ADSHEAD: Just to finish up on AUKUS, obviously, the Greens, you know, the other day Adam Bandt was on TV saying that he thinks that the AUKUS deal should be scrapped. Now, if you do end up in a minority government with the Greens, is that sort of stuff negotiable or do you just tell them about it?

MARLES: It's definitely– no chance. It's not negotiable at all. And we're not going to be in a deal with the Greens. You know, we are seeking to win government in our own right and that's the way in which we are going forward in this election. But, you know, we're not going to be doing any deals for the Greens. And AUKUS is very much the policy of this government. It's what we have been pursuing since the moment that we've come into office. We supported it from the moment it was announced when we were in opposition, and it forms a central part of our defence and national security policy.

ADSHEAD: Can I get your observation of Peter Dutton's idea of a referendum around deporting dual citizens who might be, you know, found guilty of breaking the law? What do you think of a referendum around that?

MARLES: I mean, this is a thought bubble that didn't make it to lunchtime, is the answer to that. I mean, Michaelia Cash has already come out and seems to have a differing opinion to her leader. So, amongst the Liberals themselves, they can't seem to work out what their policy is. I mean, this makes no sense. We have legislation right now which enables citizenship to be stripped from dual citizens in these circumstances. I mean, this is an attempt to grab a headline, but there is no serious policy thought behind this. And he hasn't even done the work within his own team to get them behind it. So, I mean, this is another example of where Peter Dutton and the Liberals are all over the place. But I think the fact that these thought bubbles are coming forward is really to distract attention from the fact that this is a party, an opposition which really doesn't have a cost of living policy. I mean, they don't– it's been the single biggest issue that's faced people in the Australian public over the last three years. It's what has been the focus of our government. And basically what you're seeing from the Liberals is an attempt to stop all that we've been doing in the Parliament in this space and not come up with a single idea themselves. And so now we get to the pointy end of the season where we're not far away from an election. They've got nothing to say on the cost of living and so they're saying whatever else they can, but it's not making any sense.

ADSHEAD: What about RICO statutes being introduced into our law enforcement system here in Australia to round up organised crime issues in the union sector, for example, in bikies? What about that one?

MARLES: Well, I mean, look, firstly, what we've seen revealed in relation to this is abhorrent. It is really utterly unacceptable that we see that kind of behaviour. It's why we put in place an administrator into the CFMEU. And indeed, the administrator in the CFMEU has been working with the authorities to get to a point where we are now seeing people being, you know, officials being removed from the CFMEU and the authorities able to pursue prosecutions in this space, which is what should have been happening over the 10 years or nine years that the Liberals were in government. I mean, there is no place for this. We are committed to stamping it out and we're actually in practice taking steps which is bringing that about, you know, and that's what matters. The kind of rhetoric that you hear from Peter Dutton in this space doesn't take anything forward. And again, just distracts from the fact that for the better part of a decade, when they were in government, they allowed this behaviour to flourish.

ADSHEAD: Minister, thanks very much for joining us on your visit here to Western Australia. Appreciate it.

MARLES: Pleasure. Thanks for having me. 

ENDS